Who are the 144000?

[Terence Nesbit]

I'm trying to understand and clarify some things concerning the 144000 that
is described in revelations. The 144000 can't be those living on earth and
still be considered to be from the 12 tribes of Israel. The two terms are
not synonymous. I don't believe that this number relates to those that have
been conceived either. And, they don't need to be marked. The reason I say
that the members of the 144000 do not need to be marked is because they are
already gone by that day. Another reason they do not need to be marked is
because they are of the chosen people.

[Holy † Cow]

All I know is I won't be one of them :(

http://www.virtualholybible.com

[James]

Re: Who are the 144000?
I'm trying to understand and clarify some things concerning the 144000 that
is described in revelations. The 144000 can't be those living on earth and
still be considered to be from the 12 tribes of Israel. The two terms are
not synonymous. I don't believe that this number relates to those that have
been conceived either. And, they don't need to be marked. The reason I say
that the members of the 144000 do not need to be marked is because they are
already gone by that day. Another reason they do not need to be marked is
because they are of the chosen people.

Hello,

The Bible shows TWO outcomes of salvation for righteous ones. One
group lives forever in Heaven with Jesus and God, the other group
lives forever on earth. For example, Jesus talked about that latter
group at Mt 5:5,

"Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (NIV)

Also notice Ps 37:29,

"The upright will have the earth for their heritage, and will go on
living there for ever." (The Bible in Basic English)

God clearly tells us that made this planet to have people living on
it. Isa 45:18,

"For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is
God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not
create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited--..." (NIV)

Jesus referred to these two groups of people (those going to Heaven
forever and those living on earth forever) at John 10:11-16. Notice
verses 11-15 are talking about Jesus' sheep. (He refers to this same
group of sheep again at Luke 12:32 as a "little flock" who gets the
"kingdom") Then in verse 16 he talks about another group of sheep
which are not of the "fold" of 11-15. But these also are accepted by
Jesus so that he will be the "one shepherd" over both of them. (verse
16) Who compose this 2nd group of sheep?

Notice in Re 14:1-3 that these 144,000 who came "from the earth" are
with Jesus on the heavenly Mount Zion. This same 144,000 is mentioned
in Re 7:4. But in verse 9 it talks about "a great multitude that no
one could count" who are "from every nation" and who get salvation
because of God and "the lamb". That great crowd is different from the
one mentioned at Re 19:1,6. This other great crowd are angels. They
did not come from the earth, nor does it mention that they owe their
salvation to the lamb.

This "great multitude" of Re 7:9 could not be referring to the "little
flock" because the "great multitude" are described as a very large
group. ("no one could count") So these must be the "other sheep" of
John 10:16. They will be the ones who "inherit the earth".

But doesn't it say in Re 7:9 that this great multitude are "standing
before the throne and in front of the Lamb."? Doesn't this mean they
are in Heaven? The word "stand" can mean an approved condition and not
just location. (see Re 6:17; Lu 21:36) The words "before the throne"
are translated from the Greek "enopion tou thronou" which literally
means "in sight of the throne". Thus the Greek vocabulary from which
these words are translated from do not require this "great crowd" to
be up in heaven, but only "in sight" of it. We are "in sight" of God
even while here on earth. (see Acts 10:33)

These 144,000 that are "kings" in Heaven also have a job to do. As
kings, they need subjects to rule over. Who are these? As 1 Co 6:2
says "the saints will judge the world?" But how could they judge
anyone on earth if everyone has gone to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory?

In summery, the Bible shows that God will have 144,000 chosen from the
earth to be in Heaven forever with Jesus and God, and to rule over
mankind. God also will have perfect righteous people living forever on
a paradise earth just as He originally intended with Adam and Eve and
their offspring.

I hope this has helped you.


Sincerely, James

**If you wish to have a discussion with me, please use email since I
do not follow ng threads

***********************************
Want a Free home Bible study?
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?
Go to the authorized source:
http://www.watchtower.org
***********************************

[l***@hotmail.com]

Post by James

Re: Who are the 144000?
I'm trying to understand and clarify some things concerning the 144000

The Bible shows TWO outcomes of salvation for righteous ones. One
group lives forever in Heaven with Jesus and God, the other group
lives forever on earth.
Have Jehovah's Witnesses questions?

The JW's haven't got it right on the Deity of Christ so don't expect
them to get a simple thing like the 144,000 right. What they do is
first form their system of theology and then torture various
scripture passages to squeeze into their predetermined interpreta-
tion.

The key to Rev is 1:19. Most all commentaries will tell you but
not many explain it for the English reader. In the Greek the third
section of this verse, "the things which shall take place", John
places in the ingressive aorist. Look at Jn 1:14 where he writes,
"And the Word became flesh." Here to John uses the ingressive
aorist. The ingressive aorist indicates a transition into an
entirely new condition. That is obvious in Jn 1:14, is it not? Now
look at Rev 4:1. Here John again employs the ingressive aorist
indicating not only a new condition, but in that 4:1 follows after
Chapters 2 & 3 which only spoke to and of the churches, 4:1
indicates a transition. John's rapture into heaven illustrates the
rapture of the Church into heaven prior to beginning of Daniel's
70th week. The first 69 weeks of years have already been
literally and historically fulfilled _by_the_nation_of_Israel.

As the first 69 sevens (weeks of years) were fulfilled by Israel,
even so the last or 70th week. The 144,000 are exactly what
the text declares them to be -Jews. You don't see John
employing any figurative language in the passage so it is to
be taken at face value. Also, when we study the OT prophecies
concerning both the 70th week and the Day of the Lord, it always
and only refers to the Jews. Study Zephaniah. It's a short
book but it amply illustrates the purpose of the Day of the
Lord both in the narrow and broad aspects.

The narrow aspect treats only the Daniel's 70th week, but
even more narrowly -the last 3 1/2 years of that week, which
Daniel discribes as a "time of distress" in 12:1, what the
prophet Jeremiah calls, "the time of Jacobs distress"
(or trouble) in 30:7 and what Christ Himself speaks of in
Mt 24:21 as the "Great Tribulation." It is a time of purging
Israel of it hard hearted unbelief. Many prophecies come
into play here but for now, 2/3rds of Israel will die during
this last half of the 70th week.

The primary purpose of the Tribulation is to purify Israel
to where it will receive "Him whom they have pierced,"
i.e. Jesus their Messiah. Believing Israel will then be
allowed to proceed into Messianic Kingdom after the
return of Christ to earth, after He has separated the believing
sheep from the unbelieving goats, after He has separated
the unbelieving Gentiles from the believing Gentiles and
then sets up His throne in Jerusalem and rules the nations
of the world as the Lion of Judah.

Want a very good book that is fairly easy to read? Actually
there are two volumes, on for Daniel and one for the book of
Revelation. The author is John Walvoord who use to be the
president of Dallas Theological Seminary. Try finding them
at: abebooks.com and save a bundle.

Hope this helps.

[Logician]

Post by Terence Nesbit
I'm trying to understand and clarify some things concerning the 144000 that
is described in revelations. The 144000 can't be those living on earth and
still be considered to be from the 12 tribes of Israel. The two terms are
not synonymous. I don't believe that this number relates to those that have
been conceived either. And, they don't need to be marked. The reason I say
that the members of the 144000 do not need to be marked is because they are
already gone by that day. Another reason they do not need to be marked is
because they are of the chosen people.

Bush and his friends make up the 144,000!

[Andrew]

Post by Logician

Post by Terence Nesbit
I'm trying to understand and clarify some things concerning the 144000 that
is described in revelations. The 144000 can't be those living on earth and
still be considered to be from the 12 tribes of Israel. The two terms are
not synonymous. I don't believe that this number relates to those that have
been conceived either. And, they don't need to be marked. The reason I say
that the members of the 144000 do not need to be marked is because they are
already gone by that day. Another reason they do not need to be marked is
because they are of the chosen people.

Bush and his friends make up the 144,000!

Bush has friends?????