Discussion:
Intelligent design???
(too old to reply)
wmech
2005-04-26 00:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Intelligent design?

Let's look at the human body.

Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?

The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?

The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!

And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?

There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
FreeThink
2005-04-26 00:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
The inverted "miraculous creation" argument is just as worthless as
the original.
FreeThink
2005-04-26 00:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
The inverted miraculous creation argument is just as worthless as the
original.
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-26 09:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
The inverted miraculous creation argument is just as worthless as the
original.
How so? It points out the very clear inconsistencies within biology that
we shouldn't see if there was an omniscient designer.

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
FreeThink
2005-04-26 09:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
The inverted miraculous creation argument is just as worthless as the
original.
How so? It points out the very clear inconsistencies within biology that
we shouldn't see if there was an omniscient designer.
In order to assign value judgements we would have to know what the
objective was.
Post by The Great Hairy One
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-26 10:27:12 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
***@yahoo.com says...

Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
In order to assign value judgements we would have to know what the
objective was.
Yep, I'd agree with you. So, what was the objective then?

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
FreeThink
2005-04-26 10:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
In order to assign value judgements we would have to know what the
objective was.
Yep, I'd agree with you. So, what was the objective then?
Was/Is there one? I'm an agnostic so don't ask me.
Post by The Great Hairy One
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-26 10:54:53 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
***@yahoo.com says...

Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Was/Is there one? I'm an agnostic so don't ask me.
Hey, you brought it up mate. :)

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
Christopher A. Lee
2005-04-26 01:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
FreeThink
2005-04-26 01:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
Christopher A. Lee
2005-04-26 02:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
sdq
2005-04-26 17:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
Lets rename him "think"-free.
Christopher A. Lee
2005-04-26 17:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
Lets rename him "think"-free.
I have never understood why so many of them invent non-sequitur
strawmen and ask you if you are saying that.

It adds nothing to the discussion and is an admission that they have
nothing to say.

But we've all seen it in TV courtrooms.
sdq
2005-04-26 19:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
Lets rename him "think"-free.
I have never understood why so many of them invent non-sequitur
strawmen and ask you if you are saying that.
It adds nothing to the discussion and is an admission that they have
nothing to say.
But we've all seen it in TV courtrooms.
Are you saying that if there was a god it would be a tv courtroom judge ?

:-)
FreeThink
2005-04-29 12:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
Lets rename him "think"-free.
I have never understood why so many of them invent non-sequitur
strawmen and ask you if you are saying that.
It adds nothing to the discussion and is an admission that they have
nothing to say.
But we've all seen it in TV courtrooms.
You responded with a question in your first post. Did you get that from
television? I am aware of what is problematic with the human body
despite your evasive allusion that I am not.

I don't know what you mean by grouping me with the mysterious "them"
but I'll restate my opinion.

You expressed dissatisfaction with the design of the human body. You
insinuated that the design was not intelligent. What design would
qualify as intelligent? Do you require perfection?
Christopher A. Lee
2005-04-29 13:03:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the
other
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these
are
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden
of Eden?
Obviously not, moron. If I had meant that I would have said it.

However it was your stupid strawman and a complete non-sequitur.
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by Christopher A. Lee
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
Lets rename him "think"-free.
I have never understood why so many of them invent non-sequitur
strawmen and ask you if you are saying that.
Like you did, moron.
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
It adds nothing to the discussion and is an admission that they have
nothing to say.
But we've all seen it in TV courtrooms.
You responded with a question in your first post. Did you get that from
television?
Another of your stupid falsehood non-sequiturs.

Do you honestly in=imagine that because you don't think for yourself
that nobody else does either?
Post by FreeThink
I am aware of what is problematic with the human body
despite your evasive allusion that I am not.
What "evasive allusion" would that be, liar?
Post by FreeThink
I don't know what you mean by grouping me with the mysterious "them"
but I'll restate my opinion.
One of the morons who doesn't address points but invented
non-sequiturs that are blatant falsehoods and asked if I said/meant
what when I obviously didn't.

Don't be so stupid and try to be less dishonest next time.
Post by FreeThink
You expressed dissatisfaction with the design of the human body. You
What "design of the human body", moron?
Post by FreeThink
insinuated that the design was not intelligent.
IF IT HAD BEEN DESIGNED WHICH YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN BECAUSE THERE IS NO
WAY TO then this hypothetical designer was remarkably stupid.

Which word are you pretending you don't understand?
Post by FreeThink
What design would
qualify as intelligent?
Demonstrate design and then you can ask that question.
Post by FreeThink
Do you require perfection?
What the fuck has this non-sequitur got to do with it, moron?

YOU HAVEN'T DEMONSTRATED DESIGN. PERFECTION IS ANOTHER STUPID RED
HERRING.

Learn to read for comprehension and address what you are told.
FreeThink
2005-05-01 03:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
On 25 Apr 2005 18:50:14 -0700, "FreeThink"
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a
quadruped's
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
spine and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the
other
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these
are
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden
of Eden?
Obviously not, moron. If I had meant that I would have said it.
If you had said that I would not have asked the question. I learned to
request information in the form of a question from my parents. OK,
maybe the television show Capt. Kangaroo did help with that one.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
However it was your stupid strawman and a complete non-sequitur.
It was a question, not a statement about you, so how could it be a
strawman? The most it could be is a question begging the answer. You
insinuated that defects in the human body, i.e. the universe, were
arguments against ID. I asked you if your logic required a universe
with no defects in order to reach the other conclusion.

I have noticed that it doesn't take too long before you bring on the
drama play.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by sdq
[reads what I just wrote and sees nothing remotely like that]
Lets rename him "think"-free.
I have never understood why so many of them invent non-sequitur
strawmen and ask you if you are saying that.
Like you did, moron.
You did. You are. :-P
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
It adds nothing to the discussion and is an admission that they have
nothing to say.
But we've all seen it in TV courtrooms.
You responded with a question in your first post. Did you get that from
television?
Another of your stupid falsehood non-sequiturs.
Do you honestly in=imagine that because you don't think for yourself
that nobody else does either?
What were you saying about strawmen Perry Mason?
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
I am aware of what is problematic with the human body
despite your evasive allusion that I am not.
What "evasive allusion" would that be, liar?
The "evasiveness" refers to your not having a pertinent response. The
"allusion" refers to your repeated comments about my lack of
intelligence. I have to give that one to you. There was no allusion at
all. You comments were very blunt(clumsy).
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
I don't know what you mean by grouping me with the mysterious "them"
but I'll restate my opinion.
One of the morons who doesn't address points but invented
non-sequiturs that are blatant falsehoods and asked if I said/meant
what when I obviously didn't.
Don't be so stupid and try to be less dishonest next time.
Try to be more descriptive next time. That is a very liberal use of the
word "them".
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
You expressed dissatisfaction with the design of the human body. You
What "design of the human body", moron?
The schematics or make-up of the body. Guess what? It is OK to use that
word for things that were not engineered.

Stop calling me stupid. My mother says, "I'm special."
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
insinuated that the design was not intelligent.
IF IT HAD BEEN DESIGNED WHICH YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN BECAUSE THERE IS NO
WAY TO then this hypothetical designer was remarkably stupid.
If it was designed the designer is/was phenomenally smarter than you.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Which word are you pretending you don't understand?
Post by FreeThink
What design would
qualify as intelligent?
Demonstrate design and then you can ask that question.
No. I don't know what the original catalyst for the universe was. I
have never claimed to be a creationist. I can ask any question I bloody
well please of someone who whines about his place in the universe
instead of thinking about it objectively.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by FreeThink
Do you require perfection?
What the fuck has this non-sequitur got to do with it, moron?
YOU HAVEN'T DEMONSTRATED DESIGN. PERFECTION IS ANOTHER STUPID RED
HERRING.
I have said nothing to affirm ID. I have only questioned the logic that
dismisses the possibility. Perfection cannot be defined in reference to
the universe without some criteria, if at all. Your human-serving
gripes don't seem too relevant to me. That was my point. You are the
one making the value judgments, not me.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Learn to read for comprehension and address what you are told.
Don't be a hypocrite and don't tell me what to do.
Denis Loubet
2005-04-26 03:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we
often
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not
conflict
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube
acts as the
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air.
This is
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe
through
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious
problems
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work,
it
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would
have
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine
Post by Christopher A. Lee
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent designer, we
would expect to be intelligently designed.

That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
--
Denis Loubet
***@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
FreeThink
2005-04-26 03:44:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we
often
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not
conflict
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube
acts as the
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air.
This is
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe
through
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious
problems
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work,
it
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would
have
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine
Post by Christopher A. Lee
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent
designer, we
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
It is as unreasonable as saying that it was intelligently designed.
Post by Denis Loubet
--
Denis Loubet
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
bob young
2005-04-26 05:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we
often
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not
conflict
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube
acts as the
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air.
This is
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe
through
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious
problems
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work,
it
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would
have
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine
Post by Christopher A. Lee
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent designer, we
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.

.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Post by Denis Loubet
--
Denis Loubet
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
FreeThink
2005-04-26 05:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air.
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work,
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden of
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent designer, we
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.

What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
Denis Loubet
2005-04-26 07:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that
we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do
not
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same
tube
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent
air.
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust
pipe
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't
work,
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly
would
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether
these are
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden
of
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent
designer, we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
Make our eyes like the eyes of squids, so there's no blind spot. It's
awkward to say we're well designed when there's already better "designs" out
there.
--
Denis Loubet
***@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
FreeThink
2005-04-26 07:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that
we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do
not
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same
tube
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent
air.
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the
exhaust
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
pipe
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't
work,
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he
certainly
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
would
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a
quadruped's
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether
these are
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden
of
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent
designer, we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
Make our eyes like the eyes of squids, so there's no blind spot. It's
awkward to say we're well designed when there's already better
"designs" out
Post by Denis Loubet
there.
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or convenient
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the definition of
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to be
happier overall?
Post by Denis Loubet
--
Denis Loubet
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
Kate
2005-04-26 14:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation
organ
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close
that
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that
do
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
not
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same
tube
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the
spent
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
air.
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the
exhaust
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
pipe
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for
random
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it
doesn't
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
work,
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he
certainly
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
would
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a
quadruped's
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the
other
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether
these are
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a
Garden
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
of
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent
designer, we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
Make our eyes like the eyes of squids, so there's no blind spot. It's
awkward to say we're well designed when there's already better
"designs" out
Post by Denis Loubet
there.
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or convenient
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the definition of
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to be
happier overall?
I dunno - that's what the creationists think - that things are so well
designed, there must be a designer.

Apparently you don't agree. Apparently you think there is no way of
telling that things are well designed, so apparently you think there
is no logical or illogical reason for a designer.
Denis Loubet
2005-04-26 17:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate
Post by wmech
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation
organ
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close
that
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that
do
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
not
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same
tube
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the
spent
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
air.
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the
exhaust
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
pipe
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for
random
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it
doesn't
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
work,
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he
certainly
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
would
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a
quadruped's
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the
other
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether
these are
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a
Garden
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
of
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent
designer, we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
Make our eyes like the eyes of squids, so there's no blind spot. It's
awkward to say we're well designed when there's already better
"designs" out
Post by Denis Loubet
there.
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or convenient
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the definition of
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to be
happier overall?
I dunno - that's what the creationists think - that things are so well
designed, there must be a designer.
Apparently you don't agree. Apparently you think there is no way of
telling that things are well designed, so apparently you think there
is no logical or illogical reason for a designer.
Checkmate! ;-)
--
Denis Loubet
***@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
FreeThink
2005-04-27 07:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate
Post by wmech
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation
organ
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close
that
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that
do
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
not
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same
tube
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the
spent
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
air.
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the
exhaust
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
pipe
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for
random
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it
doesn't
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
work,
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he
certainly
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
would
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a
quadruped's
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the
other
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems that appear after our reproductive years -
whether
Post by Kate
Post by wmech
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
these are
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a
Garden
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
of
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an
intelligent
Post by Kate
Post by wmech
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
designer, we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
Make our eyes like the eyes of squids, so there's no blind spot. It's
awkward to say we're well designed when there's already better
"designs" out
Post by Denis Loubet
there.
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or
convenient
Post by Kate
Post by wmech
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the definition of
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to be
happier overall?
I dunno - that's what the creationists think - that things are so well
designed, there must be a designer.
Apparently you don't agree. Apparently you think there is no way of
telling that things are well designed, so apparently you think there
is no logical or illogical reason for a designer.
I make a value judgment when I know what the criteria is. If there
was/is a creator I don't know what it's criteria was/is. I am also
skeptical that our personal perceptions of reality are accurate to any
great extent. I am not restricting my thoughts to any creator
omni-attributes either.

I have an opinion of the "design", i.e. physical reality, in reference
to myself. What difference does that make? I say, "Cry me a river!"
Kate
2005-04-27 13:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or
convenient
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the definition
of
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to be
happier overall?
I dunno - that's what the creationists think - that things are so
well
Post by Kate
designed, there must be a designer.
Apparently you don't agree. Apparently you think there is no way of
telling that things are well designed, so apparently you think there
is no logical or illogical reason for a designer.
I make a value judgment when I know what the criteria is. If there
was/is a creator I don't know what it's criteria was/is. I am also
skeptical that our personal perceptions of reality are accurate to any
great extent. I am not restricting my thoughts to any creator
omni-attributes either.
I have an opinion of the "design", i.e. physical reality, in reference
to myself. What difference does that make? I say, "Cry me a river!"
OK, so you agree then.
FreeThink
2005-04-28 06:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or
convenient
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the
definition
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
of
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to be
happier overall?
I dunno - that's what the creationists think - that things are so
well
Post by Kate
designed, there must be a designer.
Apparently you don't agree. Apparently you think there is no way of
telling that things are well designed, so apparently you think there
is no logical or illogical reason for a designer.
I make a value judgment when I know what the criteria is. If there
was/is a creator I don't know what it's criteria was/is. I am also
skeptical that our personal perceptions of reality are accurate to any
great extent. I am not restricting my thoughts to any creator
omni-attributes either.
I have an opinion of the "design", i.e. physical reality, in
reference
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
to myself. What difference does that make? I say, "Cry me a river!"
OK, so you agree then.
I don't agree with this:
"apparently you think there is no logical or illogical reason for a
designer."

The origin of the universe is a logical reason for the possibility of
it having had a creator. We are discussing how probable that is.
Kate
2005-04-28 13:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Is the term "better" defined as what is more comfortable or
convenient
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
for us? Even if increasing our quality of life were the
definition
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
of
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
"better" are you sure we don't need to be burdened in some way to
be
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
happier overall?
I dunno - that's what the creationists think - that things are so
well
Post by Kate
designed, there must be a designer.
Apparently you don't agree. Apparently you think there is no way
of
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
telling that things are well designed, so apparently you think
there
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
Post by Kate
is no logical or illogical reason for a designer.
I make a value judgment when I know what the criteria is. If there
was/is a creator I don't know what it's criteria was/is. I am also
skeptical that our personal perceptions of reality are accurate to
any
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
great extent. I am not restricting my thoughts to any creator
omni-attributes either.
I have an opinion of the "design", i.e. physical reality, in
reference
Post by Kate
Post by FreeThink
to myself. What difference does that make? I say, "Cry me a river!"
OK, so you agree then.
"apparently you think there is no logical or illogical reason for a
designer."
The origin of the universe is a logical reason for the possibility of
it having had a creator. We are discussing how probable that is.
Now there's a huge leap of logic. I don't see where you got any of
that from what was said.
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-26 09:02:51 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
***@yahoo.com says...

Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
An omniscient entity could certainly come up with a much better design
for the human body than the current situation. I can think of the
following improvements:

Separating the breathing and food intake areas to minimise aspirating of
food,
Moving the testicles back inside the body cavity, increasing their
resistance to heat, and closing the gap in the pelvic floor (this causes
major problems for the male),
Remove the prostate gland from its current placement,
Bring the kidneys up behind the ribcage, giving them a greater level of
protection,
Completely redesign the pelvis, hips, knees and feet to be more
resistant to wear and tear, and to increase mobility, balance and speed.

That's just a start. There's a lot more which could be done, mate.

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
FreeThink
2005-04-26 09:26:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
An omniscient entity could certainly come up with a much better design
for the human body than the current situation. I can think of the
Separating the breathing and food intake areas to minimise aspirating of
food,
Moving the testicles back inside the body cavity, increasing their
resistance to heat, and closing the gap in the pelvic floor (this causes
major problems for the male),
Remove the prostate gland from its current placement,
Bring the kidneys up behind the ribcage, giving them a greater level of
protection,
Completely redesign the pelvis, hips, knees and feet to be more
resistant to wear and tear, and to increase mobility, balance and speed.
That's just a start. There's a lot more which could be done, mate.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
What role do we play in all of this? What would be the benefit of your
proposed changes? Comfort for our species? Longer lives? Faster
reproduction?

We don't know what the point is if there is one. Would we even be able
to comprehend the values desired by an omnipotent thingie?
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-26 10:50:54 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
***@yahoo.com says...

Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
What role do we play in all of this?
From my point of view? There are no roles to play.
Post by FreeThink
What would be the benefit of your
proposed changes? Comfort for our species? Longer lives? Faster
reproduction?
Better health and better living.
Post by FreeThink
We don't know what the point is if there is one.
Point? If you mean the point of life, then it's very simple. Have fun,
breed and relax.
Post by FreeThink
Would we even be able
to comprehend the values desired by an omnipotent thingie?
An omni-being would have no reference for dealing with us, and us it.
It's a pointless exercise.

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
Harry F. Leopold
2005-04-27 06:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
An omniscient entity could certainly come up with a much better design
for the human body than the current situation. I can think of the
Separating the breathing and food intake areas to minimise aspirating of
food,
Moving the testicles back inside the body cavity, increasing their
resistance to heat, and closing the gap in the pelvic floor (this causes
major problems for the male),
Remove the prostate gland from its current placement,
Bring the kidneys up behind the ribcage, giving them a greater level of
protection,
Completely redesign the pelvis, hips, knees and feet to be more
resistant to wear and tear, and to increase mobility, balance and speed.
That's just a start. There's a lot more which could be done, mate.
Cheers,
TGHO
Don't forget a better design for the spine and neck.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)

"No gods were harmed during the making of this post" - Ernest Fairchild
FreeThink
2005-04-27 07:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry F. Leopold
Post by The Great Hairy One
Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
An omniscient entity could certainly come up with a much better design
for the human body than the current situation. I can think of the
Separating the breathing and food intake areas to minimise
aspirating of
Post by Harry F. Leopold
Post by The Great Hairy One
food,
Moving the testicles back inside the body cavity, increasing their
resistance to heat, and closing the gap in the pelvic floor (this causes
major problems for the male),
Remove the prostate gland from its current placement,
Bring the kidneys up behind the ribcage, giving them a greater level of
protection,
Completely redesign the pelvis, hips, knees and feet to be more
resistant to wear and tear, and to increase mobility, balance and speed.
That's just a start. There's a lot more which could be done, mate.
Cheers,
TGHO
Don't forget a better design for the spine and neck.
Maybe we are expected to tweak our DNA and take care of it ourselves.
Post by Harry F. Leopold
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
"No gods were harmed during the making of this post" - Ernest
Fairchild
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-27 12:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Maybe we are expected to tweak our DNA and take care of it ourselves.
We will, mate. Give us a 100 years, and we'll be designing all sorts of
nifty genetic fixes.

Why do you think I went and got the genetics degree in the first place?
;)
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
FreeThink
2005-04-29 11:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
Maybe we are expected to tweak our DNA and take care of it
ourselves.
Post by The Great Hairy One
We will, mate. Give us a 100 years, and we'll be designing all sorts of
nifty genetic fixes.
Why do you think I went and got the genetics degree in the first place?
;)
--
So those physical problems have at least one "good" aspect to them.
They provided the motivation for you to get your degree. Didn't the
learning process and final achievement make you happy? People need to
be challenged.

Why restrict the goals of any potential creator to only those that
provide us with what we currently think we need? There is no reason
that a creator would have to give us that much consideration.


<snip>
The Great Hairy One
2005-04-30 03:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
So those physical problems have at least one "good" aspect to them.
They provided the motivation for you to get your degree. Didn't the
learning process and final achievement make you happy? People need to
be challenged.
Sure. But even without those problems in humans, I still would have gone
into genetics - my original interest was in immortality, and trying to
discover why we age (and how to switch it off).
Post by FreeThink
Why restrict the goals of any potential creator to only those that
provide us with what we currently think we need? There is no reason
that a creator would have to give us that much consideration.
If the creator wasn't an omni-being, then sure, I could handle that. If
we were made by Odin or Amon-Ra, then no problem. It's when the
christians start going on about an infallible god-concept and all that
rubbish that I have problems.

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
FreeThink
2005-05-01 03:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
So those physical problems have at least one "good" aspect to them.
They provided the motivation for you to get your degree. Didn't the
learning process and final achievement make you happy? People need to
be challenged.
Sure. But even without those problems in humans, I still would have gone
into genetics - my original interest was in immortality, and trying to
discover why we age (and how to switch it off).
Post by FreeThink
Why restrict the goals of any potential creator to only those that
provide us with what we currently think we need? There is no reason
that a creator would have to give us that much consideration.
If the creator wasn't an omni-being, then sure, I could handle that. If
we were made by Odin or Amon-Ra, then no problem. It's when the
christians start going on about an infallible god-concept and all that
rubbish that I have problems.
I feel the same way about christianity. Those beliefs are
self-contradictory.

As an agnostic I have to defend a concept that I see as an unknown,
even when they are very unlikely, when I see those concepts being
dismissed. I also think I provide a sounding board which promotes
objectivity. Atheism is not just about not being christian.
Post by The Great Hairy One
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
The Great Hairy One
2005-05-01 20:56:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
As an agnostic I have to defend a concept that I see as an unknown,
even when they are very unlikely, when I see those concepts being
dismissed. I also think I provide a sounding board which promotes
objectivity. Atheism is not just about not being christian.
True. However, just because something is unknown does not make it
unknowable. If we lack the understanding now, in future we may not.

Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514

All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...

(Remove spam block to email)
cpumonim
2005-05-24 15:23:39 UTC
Permalink
www.batir-la-paix.org
Post by The Great Hairy One
Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
An omniscient entity could certainly come up with a much better design
for the human body than the current situation. I can think of the
Separating the breathing and food intake areas to minimise aspirating of
food,
Moving the testicles back inside the body cavity, increasing their
resistance to heat, and closing the gap in the pelvic floor (this causes
major problems for the male),
Remove the prostate gland from its current placement,
Bring the kidneys up behind the ribcage, giving them a greater level of
protection,
Completely redesign the pelvis, hips, knees and feet to be more
resistant to wear and tear, and to increase mobility, balance and speed.
That's just a start. There's a lot more which could be done, mate.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
Bill
2005-05-29 20:54:59 UTC
Permalink
And certainly the reproductive tract should not share the urinary tract!
Post by cpumonim
www.batir-la-paix.org
Post by The Great Hairy One
Gidday FreeThink,
Post by FreeThink
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
An omniscient entity could certainly come up with a much better design
for the human body than the current situation. I can think of the
Separating the breathing and food intake areas to minimise aspirating of
food,
Moving the testicles back inside the body cavity, increasing their
resistance to heat, and closing the gap in the pelvic floor (this causes
major problems for the male),
Remove the prostate gland from its current placement,
Bring the kidneys up behind the ribcage, giving them a greater level of
protection,
Completely redesign the pelvis, hips, knees and feet to be more
resistant to wear and tear, and to increase mobility, balance and speed.
That's just a start. There's a lot more which could be done, mate.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
bob young
2005-04-27 09:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:30 -0400, "wmech"
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or
Post by wmech
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that
we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
often
Post by wmech
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do
not
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
conflict
Post by wmech
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same
tube
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
acts as the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent
air.
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
This is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust
pipe
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
through
Post by wmech
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause
serious
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
problems
Post by wmech
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't
work,
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
it
Post by wmech
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly
would
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
have
Post by wmech
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's
spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether
these are
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
"intelligent design".
Are you saying that if there were a God we would live in a Garden
of
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Eden?
No, he's quite clearly saying that if there was an intelligent
designer, we
Post by bob young
Post by Denis Loubet
would expect to be intelligently designed.
That's not an unreasonable expectation, is it?
...Aaaah but 'He' moves in mysterious ways.
.........so bloody mysterious we can never find Him!!!
Possibly.
What would an omniscient entity do? You and Christopher must know
because you see something currently lacking.
No omniscient entity or deity will appear to do anything as they do not
exist.

It is up to us. those that can only manage life with an imaginary god -
good luck. Many can manage without out uite well, thanks.
bob young
2005-04-26 05:26:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
...and of course one fetus in about every 300,000 or so arrives with two heads,
or no arms, or bits missing and so horrible the mother never gets to see it.

Is that His design too?
Frank J Warner
2005-04-26 12:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
These problems are artifacts of our own success. Human beings weren't
intended to live past age 40 or so. I say this from an evolutionary
standpoint. It's no accident that puberty occurs in the early teens. In
the vast history of humans including the millennia prior to
civilization, most humans reproduced by age eighteen, and often
earlier. By age 30 or so they were pretty much used up. At age 40, they
were ancient. But that was still young enough that many of today's
geriatric medical problems rarely showed up.

-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
Frank J Warner
2005-04-26 16:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
These problems are artifacts of our own success. Human beings weren't
intended to live past age 40 or so. I say this from an evolutionary
standpoint. It's no accident that puberty occurs in the early teens. In
the vast history of humans including the millennia prior to
civilization, most humans reproduced by age eighteen, and often
earlier. By age 30 or so they were pretty much used up. At age 40, they
were ancient. But that was still young enough that many of today's
geriatric medical problems rarely showed up.
Which brings up another thought: All those stories in the bible about
people living hundreds of years (Methuselah, etc.) may be nothing more
than the well-placed awe people felt when some dude lived to be 80 or
90 years old while everyone else around them died at age 35 or 40. An
octogenarian in the 4th millennium BCE would be the equivalent of 200
years or more old for modern humans.

-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
bob young
2005-05-03 05:19:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
These problems are artifacts of our own success. Human beings weren't
intended to live past age 40 or so. I say this from an evolutionary
standpoint. It's no accident that puberty occurs in the early teens. In
the vast history of humans including the millennia prior to
civilization, most humans reproduced by age eighteen, and often
earlier. By age 30 or so they were pretty much used up. At age 40, they
were ancient. But that was still young enough that many of today's
geriatric medical problems rarely showed up.
Which brings up another thought: All those stories in the bible about
people living hundreds of years (Methuselah, etc.) may be nothing more
than the well-placed awe people felt when some dude lived to be 80 or
90 years old while everyone else around them died at age 35 or 40. An
octogenarian in the 4th millennium BCE would be the equivalent of 200
years or more old for modern humans.
-Frank
Preachers back then and now have a first priority, 'to impress', regardless of
facts

nothing changes
Post by Frank J Warner
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
http://www.franksknives.com/
FreeThink
2005-04-29 11:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
Ask an oldster about the spine (which evolved from a quadruped's spine
and curves upwards 90 degrees), or prostate, or any of the other
problems that appear after our reproductive years - whether these are
"intelligent design".
These problems are artifacts of our own success. Human beings weren't
intended to live past age 40 or so. I say this from an evolutionary
standpoint. It's no accident that puberty occurs in the early teens. In
the vast history of humans including the millennia prior to
civilization, most humans reproduced by age eighteen, and often
earlier. By age 30 or so they were pretty much used up. At age 40, they
were ancient. But that was still young enough that many of today's
geriatric medical problems rarely showed up.
-Frank
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual. Can we
get back to intelligent design now?
Frank J Warner
2005-04-30 01:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual. Can we
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?

-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
FreeThink
2005-05-01 03:29:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual. Can we
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
I don't think there is much we can know about it. That is likely due to
the fact that it almost certainly did not happen. The only thing I
really want to know is if we can rule the possibility out altogether?
Frank J Warner
2005-05-01 13:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual. Can
we
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
I don't think there is much we can know about it. That is likely due to
the fact that it almost certainly did not happen.
Then you already know everything there is to know about it. Like other
rational people on the subject, you're an expert!
Post by FreeThink
The only thing I
really want to know is if we can rule the possibility out altogether?
Yep.

-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
bob young
2005-05-03 05:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual. Can
we
Post by Frank J Warner
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
I don't think there is much we can know about it. That is likely due to
the fact that it almost certainly did not happen. The only thing I
really want to know is if we can rule the possibility out altogether?
easy press your 'common sense' button
FreeThink
2005-05-03 08:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
Post by The Great Hairy One
In article
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual. Can
we
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
I don't think there is much we can know about it. That is likely due to
the fact that it almost certainly did not happen. The only thing I
really want to know is if we can rule the possibility out
altogether?
Post by bob young
easy press your 'common sense' button
I try to avoid my 'common sense' button when I am thinking
philosophically. I guess you and Mr. Warner pushed yours.

If anyone feels like elaborating on why they think the chances of the
universe having had a creator is zero percent I would be interested in
reading it.
bob young
2005-05-04 03:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
Post by The Great Hairy One
In article
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual.
Can
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
we
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
I don't think there is much we can know about it. That is likely
due to
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
the fact that it almost certainly did not happen. The only thing I
really want to know is if we can rule the possibility out
altogether?
Post by bob young
easy press your 'common sense' button
I try to avoid my 'common sense' button when I am thinking
philosophically. I guess you and Mr. Warner pushed yours.
If anyone feels like elaborating on why they think the chances of the
universe having had a creator is zero percent I would be interested in
reading it.
Easy. Many humans think their gods created everything since they [the
humans] have brains that are capable of such thoughts.

When the last human leaves this planet [death of a species due to the
evolutionary process] there will be nothing alive capable of wondering
how the universe was created. It will be left to the bacteria, the
animals and the insects; and they couldn't, or cannot, care less.

Think of it, billions of years on and the universe continues without
being questioned, as there is nothing in it capable of begging the
question.

QED
FreeThink
2005-05-04 12:12:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
Post by The Great Hairy One
In article
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly
factual.
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
Can
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
we
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
I don't think there is much we can know about it. That is likely
due to
Post by bob young
Post by FreeThink
the fact that it almost certainly did not happen. The only thing I
really want to know is if we can rule the possibility out
altogether?
Post by bob young
easy press your 'common sense' button
I try to avoid my 'common sense' button when I am thinking
philosophically. I guess you and Mr. Warner pushed yours.
If anyone feels like elaborating on why they think the chances of the
universe having had a creator is zero percent I would be interested in
reading it.
Easy. Many humans think their gods created everything since they [the
humans] have brains that are capable of such thoughts.
When the last human leaves this planet [death of a species due to the
evolutionary process] there will be nothing alive capable of
wondering
Post by bob young
how the universe was created. It will be left to the bacteria, the
animals and the insects; and they couldn't, or cannot, care less.
Think of it, billions of years on and the universe continues without
being questioned, as there is nothing in it capable of begging the
question.
QED
It does seem to be inevitable that we will remain ignorant on the
topic.
stone
2005-05-05 05:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Great Hairy One
In article
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual.
Can
we
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its
ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance. To have that
much order and complexity, the universe had to be designed by an intelligent
creator. There is enough coded information in one human chromosome to
fill a small library of books. This had to be designed by an
intelligent creator.
The probability against that happening by chance is very
very high. It's like giving a chimpanzee a typewriter and letting him hit
the keys at
random. The probability against his being able to type a small library full
of books by hitting keys at random is so high that for all
practical purposes you can consider it impossible.
Because of this, there are some scientists and mathematicians who are forced
to
believe in the existence of God by logic alone.
In order for a single cell to live, all of the parts of the cell must be
assembled before life starts. This involves 60,000 proteins that are
assembled in roughly 100 different combinations. The probability that these
complex groupings of proteins could have happened just by chance is
extremely small. It is about 1 chance in 10 to the 4,478,296 power. The
probability of a living cell being assembled just by chance is so small,
that you may as well consider it to be impossible. This means that the
probability that the living cell is created by an intelligent creator, that
designed it, is extremely large. The probability that God created the living
cell is 10 to the 4,478,296 power to 1.
Example: 10 to the 6th power is one million, 10 to the 7th power is 10
million, 10 to the 8th power is 100 million, 10 to the 9th power is a
billion; each time the power goes up by one, the number goes up by ten times
as much. 10 to the 4,478,296 power, is a tremendously large number.
[The probability of this was calculated by Fred Hoyle, famous astronomer and
mathematician.]
The laws conscerning entropy are well established in physics. Entropy is the
measure of the randomness or disorder in a system. Entropy is always
observed to increase in natural physical processes. Natural processes in
science always tend toward more disorder. The idea that the universe could
develope the ordered complexity that it has, by natural processes violates
the law of entropy, that says disorder must increase in natural processes.
Therefore, one must conclude that the complex order that we see in the
universe did not come about by chance scientific processes. It was developed
on purpose by an intelligent creator. God created it.
The law of entropy exists in thermodynamic systems involving heat, that is
true. Entropy also exists as a measure of disorder in a system in
statistical mechanics having nothing to do with thermodynamics. S=klnp + c.
S = value of measure for a system in a given state. P is the probability of
the occurence of that state. K is a fixed constant and c an arbitrary
constant. Heat is disordered energy. Entropy is a broader term describing
either heat or the amount of disorder in a system. The chemical reactions
that you suppose will produce hundreds of thousands of ordered building
blocks of amino acids to produce genes cannot occur by chance processes
because statistical mechanics says that the reactions will tend toward more
disorder. Genes and chromosomes have hundreds of thousands of complexly
ordered parts. Accoording to statistical mechanics this much order cannot
come from chance scientific processes. It had to come from an intelligent
creator.


There are no existing physical rules, that have been observed by science,
that indicate that ordered complexity can evolve by random chance
occurences. In Science there is an observed law of entropy. In all natural
occurences in science, the amount of disorder increases. In other words, the
physical laws that are observed in nature lead to more disorder; they do not
lead to ordered complexity.
The only thing observed to cause more complexity is an intelligence, of some
sort deliberately assembling something together.
Example: A pile of building materials stacked in a pile is hit by a tornado.
When the pieces come down, they do not assemble themselves into a house.
They just fall into a more disordered pile of building materials. An
intelligence must deliberately assemble the materials into a house to get
ordered complexity.
God created the ordered complexity in the universe. There are no observed
scientific processes that can account for it happening by itself.


Natural selection will weed out inferior members of a species according to
environmental requirements. But, this only leads to a species changing to
another variety of the same species known as a subspecies; that is all that
is observed in nature. [Crickets in dark caves become white with no eyes;
also fish in caves.] But natural selection has not been observed to cause
one species to change into another new species. Fish do not change into
amphibians; amphibians do not change into reptiles; reptiles do not change
into mammals. Natural selection cannot account for the origin of the
different species. There are a million missing links in the fossil record as
it has been found. The intermediate stages that would be necessary for fish
to become amphibians, and reptiles to become mammals, have not been found in
the fossils. The fossils show evidence that all of the species were
originally created by God and they did not evolve into one another.
"Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance
of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic
molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is
insensibly different from zero"
- Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p.3

"No matter how large the environment one considers, lfe cannot have had
a random beginning. Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on
typewriters could not produce the works of Shakespeare, for the
practical reason that the whole observable universe is not large enough
to contain the necessary monkey hordes, the necessary typewriters, and
certainly the waste paper baskets required for the deposition of wrong
attempts. The same is true for living material"
Ibid., p.148

"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the
chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is one one part in
(10^20)^2000 = 10^40000, an outrageously small probability that could
not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If
one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific
training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by
chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea
entirely out of court"
Ibid., p.24

"Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one
part in 10^40000 must be judged superior to random shuffling. The
theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a
probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40000 of being the correct
explaination of the many curious facts discussed in previous chapters.
Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not
widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological
rather than scientific."
Ibid., p.130

"All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn
out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it."
- Lee Spetner, "Not by Chance"(Brooklyn, New York: The Judaica
Press,Inc.) p.138

"It appears that the neo-darwinism hypothesis is insufficient to explain
some of the observations that were not available at the time the
paradigm took shape. ...One might ask why the neo-darwinian paradigm
does not weaken or disappear if it is at odds with critical factual
information. The reasons are not necessarily scientific ones but rather
may be rooted in human nature"
- Christian Schwabe "On the Validity of Molecular Evolution", Trends
in
Biochemical Sciences, July 1986, p.282

"The really significant finding that comes to light from comparing the
proteins' amino acid sequences is that it is impossible to arrange them
in any sort of evolutionary series" - Ibid. p.289

"Thousands of different sequences, protein, and nucleic acid, have now
been compared in hundreds of different species but never has any
sequnces been found to be in any sense the lineal descendant or ancestor
of any other sequence." - Ibid. pp. 289-290

"Each class at a molecular level is unique, isolated and unlinked by
intermediates. Thus molecules, like fossils, have failed to provide the
elusive intermediates so long sought by evolutionary biology." - Ibid
p.290

"There is little doubt that if this molecular evidence had been
available one century ago it would have been seized upon with
devastating effect by the opponents of evolution theory like Agassiz and
Owen, and the idea of organic evolution might never have been
accepted." - Ibid pp.290-291

"In terms of their biochemistry, none of the species deemed
'intermediate', 'ancestral' or 'primitive' by generations of
evolutionary biologists, and alluded to as evidence of sequence in
nature, show any sign of their supposed intermediate status" - Ibid
p.293

Duane T. Gish, The Origin of Mammals : If this view of evolution is true,
the fossil record should produce an enormous number of transitional forms.
Natural history museums should be overflowing with undoubted intermediate
forms. About 250,000 fossil species have been collected and
classified?Applying evolution theory and the laws of probability, most of
these 250,000 species should represent transitional forms.

Dr. Walt Brown, In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the
Flood, page 10: Fossil links are missing between numerous plants, between
single-celled forms of life and invertebrates, between invertebrates and
vertebrates, between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles,
between reptiles and mammals, between reptiles and birds, between primates
and other mammals, and between apes and other primates. The fossil record
has been studied so thoroughly that it is safe to conclude that these gaps
are real; they will never be filled. ---

Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species:
the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed [must]
truly be enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every
stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal
any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most
obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory [of
evolution].


Dr. Niles Eldredge, paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural
History, "Missing, Believed Nonexistent", Manchester Guardian, 26 November
1978:?
"The search for 'missing links' between various living creatures, like
humans and apes, is probably fruitless?because they probably never existed
as distinct transitional types...But no one has yet found any evidence of
such transitional creatures?If it is not the fossil record which is
incomplete then it must be the theory."
Lyall Watson, "The Water People", Science Digest, May 1982:
"Modern apes, for instance, seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no
yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans?of
upright, naked, toolmaking, big-brained beings?is, if we are to be honest
with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter."

Dr. Collin Patterson, a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum in
Britain, when asked why he hadn't included any illustrations of transitional
forms in his book, Evolution, he replied in a letter: "I fully agree with
your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions
in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have
included them?I will lay it on the line?there is not one such fossil for
which one could make a watertight argument."

"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major
transitions in the organic design, indeed our inability, even in our
imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a
persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."
S.J.Gould. "Evolution Now: A Century After Darwin", 1982, p. 140



Prigogine, a Nobel Prize winning thermodynamicist:
"The probability that at ordinary temperatures a macroscopic number of
molecules is assembled to rise to the highly ordered structures and to the
coordinated functions characterizing living organisms is vanishingly small.
The idea of spontaneous genesis of life in its present form is therefore
highly improbable even on the scale of the billions of years during which
prebiotic evolution is speculated to have occured."
Ilya Prigogine, et al, Nov 1972, Physics Today p. 23-31

TheyÂ’ve also found human and dinosaur footprints in the same rock strata, in
places like Turkmenia, in Nicaragua and near the palaxi river in the US.



















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Christopher A. Lee
2005-05-05 13:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by stone
Post by The Great Hairy One
In article
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual.
Can
we
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its
ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance.
Prove it instead of repeating a standard creationist strawman.

This is the argument from self-imposed ignorance and personal
incredulity.

A good place to start would be a coherent definition of "ordered
complexity". AND STICK TO IT.

Until you do that nobody knows what you mean.

But you haven't got one because that is one of your weasel words whose
meaning changes part way through your "argument".

Your whole "argument" depends on ill-defined words that you assume
everybody knows what you mean.

Define "God" in such a way that it is justified and universally valid
before invoking it.

I doubt you can, because you've introduced it as though it were
already universally granted in order to "justify" something that you
haven't yet justified.

It's circular. You "prove" one baseless claim by another. And then
"prove" the second baseless claim by reference to the first one.

Even somebody with a room-temperature IQ should be able to grasp this.
Post by stone
To have that
much order and complexity, the universe had to be designed by an intelligent
creator.
Why? Because some ignorant and uneducated pillock with a religious axe
to grind says so?
Post by stone
There is enough coded information in one human chromosome to
fill a small library of books. This had to be designed by an
intelligent creator.
Why, moron?
Post by stone
The probability against that happening by chance is very
very high. It's like giving a chimpanzee a typewriter and letting him hit
the keys at
random. The probability against his being able to type a small library full
of books by hitting keys at random is so high that for all
practical purposes you can consider it impossible.
No, it's not, moron - and you know that because you already know that
it didn't happen all at once, but a step at a time, building on
previous steps.
Post by stone
Because of this, there are some scientists and mathematicians who are forced
to
believe in the existence of God by logic alone.
Why the stupid, transparent, deliberate lie?
Post by stone
In order for a single cell to live, all of the parts of the cell must be
assembled before life starts. This involves 60,000 proteins that are
assembled in roughly 100 different combinations. The probability that these
complex groupings of proteins could have happened just by chance is
extremely small. It is about 1 chance in 10 to the 4,478,296 power. The
probability of a living cell being assembled just by chance is so small,
that you may as well consider it to be impossible. This means that the
probability that the living cell is created by an intelligent creator, that
designed it, is extremely large. The probability that God created the living
cell is 10 to the 4,478,296 power to 1.
No, liar. It did not all happen at once. Built on what was there
already.
Post by stone
Example: 10 to the 6th power is one million, 10 to the 7th power is 10
million, 10 to the 8th power is 100 million, 10 to the 9th power is a
billion; each time the power goes up by one, the number goes up by ten times
as much. 10 to the 4,478,296 power, is a tremendously large number.
[The probability of this was calculated by Fred Hoyle, famous astronomer and
mathematician.]
No, it wasn't - he nervier calculated it - he plucked it out of his
arse just as you are.

And does "being famous" somehow make him right?
Post by stone
The laws conscerning entropy are well established in physics. Entropy is the
measure of the randomness or disorder in a system. Entropy is always
observed to increase in natural physical processes. Natural processes in
science always tend toward more disorder. The idea that the universe could
develope the ordered complexity that it has, by natural processes violates
the law of entropy, that says disorder must increase in natural processes.
No, moron, entropy is how energy is used up.
Post by stone
Therefore, one must conclude that the complex order that we see in the
universe did not come about by chance scientific processes. It was developed
on purpose by an intelligent creator. God created it.
Prove that this hypothetical thing you call "God" exists to anything
instead of spouting this question-begging inanity, moron.
Post by stone
The law of entropy exists in thermodynamic systems involving heat, that is
true. Entropy also exists as a measure of disorder in a system in
statistical mechanics having nothing to do with thermodynamics. S=klnp + c.
S = value of measure for a system in a given state. P is the probability of
the occurence of that state. K is a fixed constant and c an arbitrary
constant. Heat is disordered energy. Entropy is a broader term describing
either heat or the amount of disorder in a system. The chemical reactions
that you suppose will produce hundreds of thousands of ordered building
blocks of amino acids to produce genes cannot occur by chance processes
because statistical mechanics says that the reactions will tend toward more
disorder. Genes and chromosomes have hundreds of thousands of complexly
ordered parts. Accoording to statistical mechanics this much order cannot
come from chance scientific processes. It had to come from an intelligent
creator.
Can you say "non-sequitur", moron? Argument from personal incredulity
and self-imposed ignorance? Strawman?

Entropy describes how energy is used up, moron.

Why did it have to come from an intelligent creator, moron?

And even if your bogus "arguments" worked, they apply to this
hypothetical creator as well.

This thing you have yet to demonstrate has any existence outside your
deluded imagination, for which there is no evidence, is un-necessary
and has no reason whatsoever even to be postulated. Which you sneaked
in hoping nobody would notice

Do you honestly imagine chemistry and physics allow atoms to come
together to form molecules totally randomly?

How many different ways can one or more hydrogen atoms combine with
oxygen atoms? Hint: look up "valency"?

And as you already know it's only the simplest combinations that
combine in a single step. Because when you did basic chemistry you
used what had already been combined to form other products WHICH
DIDN'T SPONTANEOUSLY HAPPEN FROM THE BASE ATOMS ALL AT ONCE.
Post by stone
There are no existing physical rules, that have been observed by science,
that indicate that ordered complexity can evolve by random chance
occurences. In Science there is an observed law of entropy. In all natural
occurences in science, the amount of disorder increases. In other words, the
physical laws that are observed in nature lead to more disorder; they do not
lead to ordered complexity.
Learn what entropy actually is instead of demonstrating what an
out-of-touch-with-reality moron you are.

And remember your high-school physics, chemistry etc. You don't need
to be a cosmologist to realise you are talking sheer and utter
bollocks.
Post by stone
The only thing observed to cause more complexity is an intelligence, of some
sort deliberately assembling something together.
Blatant lie.

Ever seen snowflakes, moron
Post by stone
Example: A pile of building materials stacked in a pile is hit by a tornado.
When the pieces come down, they do not assemble themselves into a house.
They just fall into a more disordered pile of building materials. An
intelligence must deliberately assemble the materials into a house to get
ordered complexity.
So what? How does this extrapolate to the universe, moron?

It doesn't even extrapolate to snowflakes.

And you're confusing after-the-fact probability with before the fact.

Do you honestly imagine that a house spontaneously formed from the raw
atoms?
Post by stone
God created the ordered complexity in the universe.
Prove it, moron.

Prove that "God" exists to do anything outside the mythology of your
religion. Let alone that. BEFORE TREATING IT AS UNIVERSALLY GRANTED
because it ain't.

Then prove that it is exempt from your "argument" because by your
"logic" its order and complexity requires a higher-level designer too.


Prove that "ordered complexity" requires a designer? Hint" you've
already been refuted on that one.
Post by stone
There are no observed
scientific processes that can account for it happening by itself.
Argument from a combination of personal incredulity and deliberate
falsehood.

Liar.

I suggest you read any of the layman's books on big-bang cosmology. "A
Brief History of Time" is a good one.
Post by stone
Natural selection will weed out inferior members of a species according to
environmental requirements. But, this only leads to a species changing to
another variety of the same species known as a subspecies; that is all that
is observed in nature. [Crickets in dark caves become white with no eyes;
also fish in caves.] But natural selection has not been observed to cause
one species to change into another new species. Fish do not change into
amphibians; amphibians do not change into reptiles; reptiles do not change
into mammals. Natural selection cannot account for the origin of the
different species. There are a million missing links in the fossil record as
it has been found. The intermediate stages that would be necessary for fish
to become amphibians, and reptiles to become mammals, have not been found in
the fossils. The fossils show evidence that all of the species were
originally created by God and they did not evolve into one another.
"Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance
of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic
molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is
insensibly different from zero"
- Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p.3
Page 3 of what, moron?

You're committing yet another fallacy: argument from authority. You
give somebody's alleged conclusion as though that settled it.

But no reasons why they reach it for those of us who actually use our
brains to think with..

They (or the liars who fabricated the quote) do your thinking for you,
and that's good enough for you so by golly it should be good enough
for us as well.

That paragraph is an obvious fabrication because Hoyle and
Wichramasinghe only have funny ideas of the origin of life (look up
panspermia, they think it arrived as spores from outer space) and
accept that once life was here it evolved in the way mainstream
science understands.

In fact the creationists called Wickramasinghe as an expert witness in
one of the court cases (Arkansas equal time?) and his answers to their
questions demolished their own case. The judge said he couldn't
understand why they chose an expert witness who disagreed with them.

The paragraph is full of standard creationist falsehoods. The
intermediate forms the Liars For God pretend don't exist were observed
in the fossil record a few hundred years ago, AND THIS IS WHAT WAS
LABELLED "EVOLUTION"

Speciation has been observed in both the lab and in the wild. Go to
the talk.origins FAQs and you will see lists of examples.

Natural selection is merely part of the process. The rest of it is
genetic mutation (observed, investigated and well understood( as the
result of garbled copying of genetic material. This gives the heredity
and mutation components of "evolution by natural selection".

Natural selection is merely the filter of survival and reproductive
advantage that works on the mechanisms of heredity and mutation.

The paragraph contains so many outright lies, and is completely at
odds with what Hoyle and Wichramasinghe's published work, interviews
etc say.

There is no evolution vs creation debate outside the minds of
religious fundamentalists who dismiss reality when it conflicts with a
literal reading of what are obviously two different inter-twined
creation myths - which literal reading doesn't even stand up on its
own, let alone when used to "describe" reality.

It isn't an issue in the rest of the developed world. The juggernaut
that is science has gone on from whether it happened, to how it
happened. Even in Victorian times the scientists knew it happened, and
it was only ignorant religionists who said it didn't.

Without evolution, the unified whole that is scientific understanding
would have gone in a completely different direct Science has gone in a
completely different direction,. While sciences eg genetics simply
wouldn't exist, or would be completely different. And neither would
their spinoff technologies, because it is all about what works.

Huge swathes of modern medicine and modern agriculture that
hypocritical creationists take for granted at the same time they
attack the underlying science and its practitioners who provided it.

Even in the educationally backward USA the non-fundamentalist
Christians understand this - and there are three or four times more of
them than atheists.
Post by stone
"No matter how large the environment one considers, lfe cannot have had
a random beginning. Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on
typewriters could not produce the works of Shakespeare, for the
practical reason that the whole observable universe is not large enough
to contain the necessary monkey hordes, the necessary typewriters, and
certainly the waste paper baskets required for the deposition of wrong
attempts. The same is true for living material"
Ibid., p.148
AGAIN, P.140 OF WHAT?

Those are strawmen.

It's a combination of argument from caricature and ignorance.

They're astronomers. Not biochemists or abiogenesists. They had seen
(through spectrographic analysis) some of the building blocks (organic
chemicals like methane and even AFAIR simple amino acids) in
interstellar clouds. AND BECAUSE OF THEIR IGNORANCE ASSUMED THAT WAS
THE ONLY PLACE IT COULD HAPPEN. AND THAT IT WAS EXTREMELY UNLIKELY.

In spite of your caricature, life had neither a random beginning nor
needed an intelligent designer BECAUSE IT DID NOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE
AS YOUR BOGUS "PROBABILTY CALCULATIONS" PRETEND.

These building blocks have been observed in so many different
locations EVEN IN THE LAB that current abiogenesis research concludes
that given the right conditions life is inevitable.

Miller/Urey is possibly the best known experiment, but it is not the
only one and in any case was performed before Hoyle and
Wickramasinghe,

I suggest you do a google search for "Sydney Fox" protocells and pope.

You will be surprised what you find, including:
http://www.theharbinger.org/articles/rel_sci/fox.html

He was the first to do what is now a standard student exercise. He
heated (a natural process) amino acids (which have been shown to occur
naturally) producing what are known as thermal proteins. He then
applied salt water (a very common naturally occurring substance) and
observed the formation of self-organising protocells with membranes
that also divided.
Post by stone
"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the
chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is one one part in
(10^20)^2000 = 10^40000, an outrageously small probability that could
not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If
one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific
training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by
chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea
entirely out of court"
Ibid., p.24
AGAIN, P.24 OF WHAT?

It's merely repeating the same bogus, debunked "probability
calculation" that ignores the fact that IT DIDN'T ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE
but built up a stage at a time from something with a probability of 1
because it had already happened.
Post by stone
"Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one
part in 10^40000 must be judged superior to random shuffling. The
theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a
probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40000 of being the correct
explaination of the many curious facts discussed in previous chapters.
Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not
widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological
rather than scientific."
Ibid., p.130
RANDOM SHUFFLING IS A STRAWMAN.
Post by stone
"All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn
out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it."
- Lee Spetner, "Not by Chance"(Brooklyn, New York: The Judaica
Press,Inc.) p.138
Who is Spetner and why did he reach that "conclusion" which bears no
relation to reality.

Context? Because if he actually said that he was lying. The garbled
copying adds new information. Whether it is useful or not is another
matter. Natural selection to survive and reproduce filters out what
isn't.

Remainder of standard ICR Lying For God list of mined, altered ,
fabricated and out of context quotes snipped.

When are you creationists going show either intelligence or honesty?
FreeThink
2005-05-06 04:40:38 UTC
Permalink
<snip>


Thanks Mr. Lee,

You may be obnoxious but you know more facts that can refute proof of
ID than I do. Note that this is not a concession on my part. I still
can not say that it is not a possibility.
ZenIsWhen
2005-05-06 12:54:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by FreeThink
<snip>
Thanks Mr. Lee,
You may be obnoxious but you know more facts that can refute proof of
ID than I do. Note that this is not a concession on my part. I still
can not say that it is not a possibility.
???????????????????????
No one needs to present facts to refute I.D.. I .D. proponents need to
provide ANY evidence that I.D. should even be classified as a theory - and
they haven't.

Their only claim is the ancient, and ignorant, excuse
"we don't know how (why) it happened- so there MUST be a god"!
FreeThink
2005-05-07 11:19:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ZenIsWhen
Post by FreeThink
<snip>
Thanks Mr. Lee,
You may be obnoxious but you know more facts that can refute proof of
ID than I do. Note that this is not a concession on my part. I still
can not say that it is not a possibility.
???????????????????????
No one needs to present facts to refute I.D.. I .D. proponents need to
provide ANY evidence that I.D. should even be classified as a theory - and
they haven't.
Their only claim is the ancient, and ignorant, excuse
"we don't know how (why) it happened- so there MUST be a god"!
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
All ID claims can be refuted without referencing any facts?
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
wmech
2005-05-16 23:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Your using circular logic which is total illogic.

Now if the complexity of the Universe requires a creator, the creator must
be even more powerful and complex. Who created the creator.

--
Bill
Post by stone
Post by The Great Hairy One
In article
Post by FreeThink
I agree that evolutionary theory is almost certainly factual.
Can
we
Post by The Great Hairy One
Post by FreeThink
get back to intelligent design now?
All right. What would you like to know about it?
The laws of probability will tell you that this universe with all of its
ordered complexity, could not have come into being by chance. To have that
much order and complexity, the universe had to be designed by an intelligent
creator. There is enough coded information in one human chromosome to
fill a small library of books. This had to be designed by an
intelligent creator.
The probability against that happening by chance is very
very high. It's like giving a chimpanzee a typewriter and letting him hit
the keys at
random. The probability against his being able to type a small library full
of books by hitting keys at random is so high that for all
practical purposes you can consider it impossible.
Because of this, there are some scientists and mathematicians who are forced
to
believe in the existence of God by logic alone.
In order for a single cell to live, all of the parts of the cell must be
assembled before life starts. This involves 60,000 proteins that are
assembled in roughly 100 different combinations. The probability that these
complex groupings of proteins could have happened just by chance is
extremely small. It is about 1 chance in 10 to the 4,478,296 power. The
probability of a living cell being assembled just by chance is so small,
that you may as well consider it to be impossible. This means that the
probability that the living cell is created by an intelligent creator, that
designed it, is extremely large. The probability that God created the living
cell is 10 to the 4,478,296 power to 1.
Example: 10 to the 6th power is one million, 10 to the 7th power is 10
million, 10 to the 8th power is 100 million, 10 to the 9th power is a
billion; each time the power goes up by one, the number goes up by ten times
as much. 10 to the 4,478,296 power, is a tremendously large number.
[The probability of this was calculated by Fred Hoyle, famous astronomer and
mathematician.]
The laws conscerning entropy are well established in physics. Entropy is the
measure of the randomness or disorder in a system. Entropy is always
observed to increase in natural physical processes. Natural processes in
science always tend toward more disorder. The idea that the universe could
develope the ordered complexity that it has, by natural processes violates
the law of entropy, that says disorder must increase in natural processes.
Therefore, one must conclude that the complex order that we see in the
universe did not come about by chance scientific processes. It was developed
on purpose by an intelligent creator. God created it.
The law of entropy exists in thermodynamic systems involving heat, that is
true. Entropy also exists as a measure of disorder in a system in
statistical mechanics having nothing to do with thermodynamics. S=klnp + c.
S = value of measure for a system in a given state. P is the probability of
the occurence of that state. K is a fixed constant and c an arbitrary
constant. Heat is disordered energy. Entropy is a broader term describing
either heat or the amount of disorder in a system. The chemical reactions
that you suppose will produce hundreds of thousands of ordered building
blocks of amino acids to produce genes cannot occur by chance processes
because statistical mechanics says that the reactions will tend toward more
disorder. Genes and chromosomes have hundreds of thousands of complexly
ordered parts. Accoording to statistical mechanics this much order cannot
come from chance scientific processes. It had to come from an intelligent
creator.
There are no existing physical rules, that have been observed by science,
that indicate that ordered complexity can evolve by random chance
occurences. In Science there is an observed law of entropy. In all natural
occurences in science, the amount of disorder increases. In other words, the
physical laws that are observed in nature lead to more disorder; they do not
lead to ordered complexity.
The only thing observed to cause more complexity is an intelligence, of some
sort deliberately assembling something together.
Example: A pile of building materials stacked in a pile is hit by a tornado.
When the pieces come down, they do not assemble themselves into a house.
They just fall into a more disordered pile of building materials. An
intelligence must deliberately assemble the materials into a house to get
ordered complexity.
God created the ordered complexity in the universe. There are no observed
scientific processes that can account for it happening by itself.
Natural selection will weed out inferior members of a species according to
environmental requirements. But, this only leads to a species changing to
another variety of the same species known as a subspecies; that is all that
is observed in nature. [Crickets in dark caves become white with no eyes;
also fish in caves.] But natural selection has not been observed to cause
one species to change into another new species. Fish do not change into
amphibians; amphibians do not change into reptiles; reptiles do not change
into mammals. Natural selection cannot account for the origin of the
different species. There are a million missing links in the fossil record as
it has been found. The intermediate stages that would be necessary for fish
to become amphibians, and reptiles to become mammals, have not been found in
the fossils. The fossils show evidence that all of the species were
originally created by God and they did not evolve into one another.
"Biochemical systems are exceedingly complex, so much so that the chance
of their being formed through random shufflings of simple organic
molecules is exceedingly minute, to a point indeed where it is
insensibly different from zero"
- Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p.3
"No matter how large the environment one considers, lfe cannot have had
a random beginning. Troops of monkeys thundering away at random on
typewriters could not produce the works of Shakespeare, for the
practical reason that the whole observable universe is not large enough
to contain the necessary monkey hordes, the necessary typewriters, and
certainly the waste paper baskets required for the deposition of wrong
attempts. The same is true for living material"
Ibid., p.148
"The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the
chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is one one part in
(10^20)^2000 = 10^40000, an outrageously small probability that could
not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If
one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific
training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by
chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea
entirely out of court"
Ibid., p.24
"Any theory with a probability of being correct that is larger than one
part in 10^40000 must be judged superior to random shuffling. The
theory that life was assembled by an intelligence has, we believe, a
probability vastly higher than one part in 10^40000 of being the correct
explaination of the many curious facts discussed in previous chapters.
Indeed, such a theory is so obvious that one wonders why it is not
widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological
rather than scientific."
Ibid., p.130
"All point mutations that have been studied on the molecular level turn
out to reduce the genetic information and not to increase it."
- Lee Spetner, "Not by Chance"(Brooklyn, New York: The Judaica
Press,Inc.) p.138
"It appears that the neo-darwinism hypothesis is insufficient to explain
some of the observations that were not available at the time the
paradigm took shape. ...One might ask why the neo-darwinian paradigm
does not weaken or disappear if it is at odds with critical factual
information. The reasons are not necessarily scientific ones but rather
may be rooted in human nature"
- Christian Schwabe "On the Validity of Molecular Evolution", Trends
in
Biochemical Sciences, July 1986, p.282
"The really significant finding that comes to light from comparing the
proteins' amino acid sequences is that it is impossible to arrange them
in any sort of evolutionary series" - Ibid. p.289
"Thousands of different sequences, protein, and nucleic acid, have now
been compared in hundreds of different species but never has any
sequnces been found to be in any sense the lineal descendant or ancestor
of any other sequence." - Ibid. pp. 289-290
"Each class at a molecular level is unique, isolated and unlinked by
intermediates. Thus molecules, like fossils, have failed to provide the
elusive intermediates so long sought by evolutionary biology." - Ibid
p.290
"There is little doubt that if this molecular evidence had been
available one century ago it would have been seized upon with
devastating effect by the opponents of evolution theory like Agassiz and
Owen, and the idea of organic evolution might never have been
accepted." - Ibid pp.290-291
"In terms of their biochemistry, none of the species deemed
'intermediate', 'ancestral' or 'primitive' by generations of
evolutionary biologists, and alluded to as evidence of sequence in
nature, show any sign of their supposed intermediate status" - Ibid
p.293
Duane T. Gish, The Origin of Mammals : If this view of evolution is true,
the fossil record should produce an enormous number of transitional forms.
Natural history museums should be overflowing with undoubted intermediate
forms. About 250,000 fossil species have been collected and
classified?Applying evolution theory and the laws of probability, most of
these 250,000 species should represent transitional forms.
Dr. Walt Brown, In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the
Flood, page 10: Fossil links are missing between numerous plants, between
single-celled forms of life and invertebrates, between invertebrates and
vertebrates, between fish and amphibians, between amphibians and reptiles,
between reptiles and mammals, between reptiles and birds, between primates
and other mammals, and between apes and other primates. The fossil record
has been studied so thoroughly that it is safe to conclude that these gaps
are real; they will never be filled. ---
the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed [must]
truly be enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every
stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal
any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most
obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory [of
evolution].
Dr. Niles Eldredge, paleontologist at the American Museum of Natural
History, "Missing, Believed Nonexistent", Manchester Guardian, 26 November
1978:?
"The search for 'missing links' between various living creatures, like
humans and apes, is probably fruitless?because they probably never existed
as distinct transitional types...But no one has yet found any evidence of
such transitional creatures?If it is not the fossil record which is
incomplete then it must be the theory."
"Modern apes, for instance, seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no
yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans?of
upright, naked, toolmaking, big-brained beings?is, if we are to be honest
with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter."
Dr. Collin Patterson, a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum in
Britain, when asked why he hadn't included any illustrations of transitional
forms in his book, Evolution, he replied in a letter: "I fully agree with
your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions
in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have
included them?I will lay it on the line?there is not one such fossil for
which one could make a watertight argument."
"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major
transitions in the organic design, indeed our inability, even in our
imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a
persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution."
S.J.Gould. "Evolution Now: A Century After Darwin", 1982, p. 140
"The probability that at ordinary temperatures a macroscopic number of
molecules is assembled to rise to the highly ordered structures and to the
coordinated functions characterizing living organisms is vanishingly small.
The idea of spontaneous genesis of life in its present form is therefore
highly improbable even on the scale of the billions of years during which
prebiotic evolution is speculated to have occured."
Ilya Prigogine, et al, Nov 1972, Physics Today p. 23-31
They've also found human and dinosaur footprints in the same rock strata,
in
Post by stone
places like Turkmenia, in Nicaragua and near the palaxi river in the US.
____________________________________________________________________________
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Denis Loubet
2005-05-17 00:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Your using circular logic which is total illogic.
Now if the complexity of the Universe requires a creator, the creator must
be even more powerful and complex. Who created the creator.
That's readily solved by a massive influx of Special Pleading.
--
Denis Loubet
***@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
thomas p
2005-05-17 13:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denis Loubet
Post by wmech
Your using circular logic which is total illogic.
Now if the complexity of the Universe requires a creator, the creator must
be even more powerful and complex. Who created the creator.
That's readily solved by a massive influx of Special Pleading.
Only to be used by theists. They get very annoyed when others try it.



Thomas P.

"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"

(Kierkegaard)
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
2005-04-26 02:12:05 UTC
Permalink
talking about intelligent design, you can tell that a pollock designed the
lower half of a woman's body, only a pollock would put the snack bar right
next to the shithole.
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
Peacenik
2005-04-26 03:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
talking about intelligent design, you can tell that a pollock designed the
lower half of a woman's body, only a pollock would put the snack bar right
next to the shithole.
A pollock? Are you saying a fish designed the lower half of a woman's body?
Well, that would explain the smell! :)

<badoom-ching>
bob young
2005-04-26 05:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peacenik
Post by SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
talking about intelligent design, you can tell that a pollock designed the
lower half of a woman's body, only a pollock would put the snack bar right
next to the shithole.
A pollock? Are you saying a fish designed the lower half of a woman's body?
Well, that would explain the smell! :)
'Pollock' is a Brit. expression for a f****n idiot
Post by Peacenik
<badoom-ching>
kathryn
2005-04-26 09:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by Peacenik
Post by SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
talking about intelligent design, you can tell that a pollock designed the
lower half of a woman's body, only a pollock would put the snack bar right
next to the shithole.
A pollock? Are you saying a fish designed the lower half of a woman's body?
Well, that would explain the smell! :)
'Pollock' is a Brit. expression for a f****n idiot
Post by Peacenik
<badoom-ching>
It's pillock, Ive never heard of pollock cept for Jackson Pollock
bob young
2005-04-26 05:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
........and why chose man to be made in His image!!!???

IMO opinion it ALL points to the creative energy released by imaginitave humans
from too far back to be of any relevance.

It is time to start thinking about today.

Bob
Post by wmech
--
Bill
Bruce Mallory
2005-04-26 23:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
Great post! A lot of common wisdom in it. But the biggest flaw with the
so-called "design" of "Adam and Eve" is in their brains. This lousy human
biomachine is certainly capable of producing an enormous outflow of
trouble-causing emotions, such as uncontrollable hate, anger, fear and
greed, but fails miserably to counter them with any useful amount of
analytical reasonong, or at least conclusions and decisions based upon the
basic common sense.

This results in such incredibly baseless, sense-free and destructive human
decisions like to vent their frustrations for their murdered compatriots by
killing scores of totally innocent people in their own country, a country
which had never done any harm to the America.

Or to fight ferrociously for the forced continuance of a vegetative state of
one woman to a point of involvement of the national legislature, but pay no
attention to the fact, that as many as 1,500 children die every year, as a
result of their abuse by adults (have you seen a lot of political action,
discussions on TV, calls for government intervention about this lately?).
These miserably impotent brains consider the preservation of vegetation of
one woman much more important, than saving any of the 1,500 live children.
Tell me why, will you?

And the same badly malfunctioning, failing brains produced the idea that it
is much more important to transfer pretty much all available resources from
fighting the number one, number two, number three, etc. causes of death,
which kill hundreds of thousands in the U.S., millions in the world every
year, to fighting the number three hundred-something cause of death, the
terrorism. "Intelligent design", indeed.

Bruce M.
"Over 3 million cases of child abuse and neglect are reported annually, a
rate of 44 per 1000 children. Each year, 160,000 children suffer severe or
life-threatening injuries and 1,000 to 2,000 children die as a result of
abuse. Physical abuse is the leading cause of serious head injury in
infants. Although physical abuse in the past has been a diagnosis of
exclusion, data regarding the nature and frequency of head trauma
consistently support the need for a presumption of child abuse when a child
younger than 1 year has suffered an intracranial injury. Head injuries are
the leading cause of traumatic death and the leading cause of child abuse
fatalities."

From:
http://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/CHdeptPagePressDisplay.cfm?Dept=Press%20Room&PageNbr=78&ParentPage=1

" A new report by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found an
estimated 1,500 children in the United States died from abuse or neglect in
2003. The majority of them were under the age of 4. "

From: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=701293&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
Post by wmech
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts as the
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air. This is
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random mutation and
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
Tom B. Stone
2005-04-27 02:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Mallory
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ
logical or intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we
often cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do
not conflict with each other?
Great post! A lot of common wisdom in it. But the biggest flaw with
the so-called "design" of "Adam and Eve" is in their brains. This
lousy human biomachine is certainly capable of producing an enormous
outflow of trouble-causing emotions, such as uncontrollable hate,
anger, fear and greed, but fails miserably to counter them with any
useful amount of analytical reasonong, or at least conclusions and
decisions based upon the basic common sense.
This results in such incredibly baseless, sense-free and destructive
human decisions like to vent their frustrations for their murdered
compatriots by killing scores of totally innocent people in their own
country, a country which had never done any harm to the America.
Or to fight ferrociously for the forced continuance of a vegetative
state of one woman to a point of involvement of the national
legislature, but pay no attention to the fact, that as many as 1,500
children die every year, as a result of their abuse by adults (have
you seen a lot of political action, discussions on TV, calls for
government intervention about this lately?). These miserably impotent
brains consider the preservation of vegetation of one woman much more
important, than saving any of the 1,500 live children. Tell me why,
will you?
And the same badly malfunctioning, failing brains produced the idea
that it is much more important to transfer pretty much all available
resources from fighting the number one, number two, number three, etc.
causes of death, which kill hundreds of thousands in the U.S.,
millions in the world every year, to fighting the number three
hundred-something cause of death, the terrorism. "Intelligent design",
indeed.
Bruce M.
"Over 3 million cases of child abuse and neglect are reported
annually, a
rate of 44 per 1000 children. Each year, 160,000 children suffer
severe or life-threatening injuries and 1,000 to 2,000 children die as
a result of abuse. Physical abuse is the leading cause of serious head
injury in infants. Although physical abuse in the past has been a
diagnosis of exclusion, data regarding the nature and frequency of
head trauma consistently support the need for a presumption of child
abuse when a child younger than 1 year has suffered an intracranial
injury. Head injuries are the leading cause of traumatic death and the
leading cause of child abuse fatalities."
http://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/CHdeptPagePressDisplay.cfm?Dept
=Press%20Room&PageNbr=78&ParentPage=1
" A new report by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
found an estimated 1,500 children in the United States died from abuse
or neglect in 2003. The majority of them were under the age of 4. "
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=701293&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
Post by wmech
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube acts
as
the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent air.
This
is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe
through the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious
problems including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation
and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work,
it doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly
would have created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
Check out Howard Bloom: "The Lucifer Principle" and "The Global Brain".
Great reading about how we got to where we are today, both biologically
and historically. Great website too: http://www.howardbloom.net/ No
shit.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
FreeThink
2005-04-27 07:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bruce Mallory
Post by wmech
Intelligent design?
Let's look at the human body.
Is running a sewer line through the middle of a creation organ logical or
intelligent?
The openings to our breathing and swallowing are so close that we often
cause choking. Why aren't there two separate openings that do not conflict
with each other?
Great post! A lot of common wisdom in it. But the biggest flaw with the
so-called "design" of "Adam and Eve" is in their brains. This lousy human
biomachine is certainly capable of producing an enormous outflow of
trouble-causing emotions, such as uncontrollable hate, anger, fear and
greed, but fails miserably to counter them with any useful amount of
analytical reasonong, or at least conclusions and decisions based upon the
basic common sense.
This results in such incredibly baseless, sense-free and destructive human
decisions like to vent their frustrations for their murdered
compatriots by
Post by Bruce Mallory
killing scores of totally innocent people in their own country, a country
which had never done any harm to the America.
Or to fight ferrociously for the forced continuance of a vegetative state of
one woman to a point of involvement of the national legislature, but pay no
attention to the fact, that as many as 1,500 children die every year, as a
result of their abuse by adults (have you seen a lot of political action,
discussions on TV, calls for government intervention about this lately?).
These miserably impotent brains consider the preservation of
vegetation of
Post by Bruce Mallory
one woman much more important, than saving any of the 1,500 live children.
Tell me why, will you?
And the same badly malfunctioning, failing brains produced the idea that it
is much more important to transfer pretty much all available
resources from
Post by Bruce Mallory
fighting the number one, number two, number three, etc. causes of death,
which kill hundreds of thousands in the U.S., millions in the world every
year, to fighting the number three hundred-something cause of death, the
terrorism. "Intelligent design", indeed.
Bruce M.
"Over 3 million cases of child abuse and neglect are reported
annually, a
Post by Bruce Mallory
rate of 44 per 1000 children. Each year, 160,000 children suffer severe or
life-threatening injuries and 1,000 to 2,000 children die as a result of
abuse. Physical abuse is the leading cause of serious head injury in
infants. Although physical abuse in the past has been a diagnosis of
exclusion, data regarding the nature and frequency of head trauma
consistently support the need for a presumption of child abuse when a child
younger than 1 year has suffered an intracranial injury. Head
injuries are
Post by Bruce Mallory
the leading cause of traumatic death and the leading cause of child abuse
fatalities."
http://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/CHdeptPagePressDisplay.cfm?Dept=Press%20Room&PageNbr=78&ParentPage=1
Post by Bruce Mallory
" A new report by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found an
estimated 1,500 children in the United States died from abuse or neglect in
2003. The majority of them were under the age of 4. "
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=701293&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
Post by Bruce Mallory
Post by wmech
The lung design is equally quaint and inefficient. The same tube
acts as
Post by Bruce Mallory
the
Post by wmech
both the
entry for life giving oxygen and the exhaust pipe for the spent
air. This
Post by Bruce Mallory
is
Post by wmech
the equivalent of an auto engine designer putting the exhaust pipe through
the carburetor manifold!
And why include a body organ like the Appendix to, cause serious problems
including death?
There is no evidence of intelligent design but only for random
mutation
Post by Bruce Mallory
and
Post by wmech
natural selection. If it works it isn't changed. If it doesn't work, it
doesn't survive. If an omniscient God created man he certainly would have
created a more logical and efficient design.
--
Bill
The universe must not be all about us, I guess. Why would an
omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevelant god start any process? Most
likely he would just produce what he wanted instantly. But that
thinking is too easy. We aren't off the hook yet by a long shot. Now
you can go back to your emotional pandering.
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