Post by Free LunchOn Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:44:10 -0800 (PST), Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Jewish Believer in JesusPost by Les HellawellOn Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by RobibnikoffPost by Jewish Believer in JesusI suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.
So you cannot disprove Santa Claus or Tinkerbell or the tooth fairy or
leprechauns.
Can I point out that this discussion centers on disproving/proving
Gods existence. If you would like proof for Santa Claus' existence, I
would suggest you start a new topic. It could be quite fun.
Post by Free LunchPost by Jewish Believer in JesusWhat I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
Why do you think you have any reason to demand such proof? There is no
evidence for any gods, not even the one you worship, so there's no
reason for people to try to disprove something that is unsupported by
evidence.
And your opinion is based on what exactly?
Post by Free LunchPost by Jewish Believer in JesusAnd if the Christian belief is based on the Bible, which is a
questionable resource to some, even though it has been proven
historically accurate
No it has not. Why do believers insist on repeating such blatant
falsehoods?
Have you read the Bible? What is your particular objection?
Post by Free LunchPost by Jewish Believer in Jesusand supported by archeological evidence
Not really.
How so?
Here are some examples:
* Clay Tablet, Ebla.The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern
Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the
Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around
2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal
accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name
critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly
in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in
Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing
of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in
use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the
stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from
Nuzi and Mari.
* The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until
their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
* Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were
greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth
in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity
was entirely feasible.
* It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as
recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other
record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The
very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded
on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing
the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
* Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon,
named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to
recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was
Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar
could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan.
5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available
position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record,
as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.
Please look up the following:
Jesus lived His public life in the land of Palestine under the Roman
rule of Tiberius (ad 14-37). There are four possible Roman historical
sources for his reign: Tacitus (55-117), Suetonius (70-160), Velleius
Paterculus (a contemporary), and Dio Cassius (3rd century). There are
two Jewish historical resources that describe events of this period:
Josephus (37-100?), writing in Greek, and the Rabbinical Writings
(written in Hebrew after 200, but much of which would have been in
oral form prior to that time). There are also sources (non-historians)
writing about the Christians, in which possible mentions are made
(e.g., Lucian, Galen).
Of these writings, we would NOT expect Velleius to have a reference to
Jesus (i.e. the events were just happening OUTSIDE of Velleius' home
area), and Dio Cassius is OUTSIDE of our time window of pre-3rd
century. Of the remaining Roman writers--Tacitus and Suetonius--we
have apparent references to Jesus (discussed below), even though the
main section in Tacitus covering the period 29-32ad is missing from
the manuscript tradition. If these are genuine and trustworthy
'mentions' of Jesus, then we have an amazing fact--ALL the relevant
non-Jewish historical sources mention Jesus! (Notice that this is the
OPPOSITE situation than is commonly assumed--"If Jesus was so
important, why didn't more historians write about Him?" In this case,
THEY ALL DID!).
Of the Jewish resources--Josephus and the Rabbinical writings (e.g.
Talmud, Midrash)--BOTH make clear references to the existence of Jesus
(even though the details reported may be odd). So ALL the Jewish
sources refer to Him.
In addition, there are three OTHER candidates for historical
'mentions' of Jesus that fall in the 2nd century: one Roman (Pliny the
Younger) , one possibly Syrian (Mara Bar Serapion), and one Samaritian
(Thallus). [We can also include here the writings of Celsus, Galen,
Lucian]
Post by Free LunchPost by Jewish Believer in Jesusthen how valid is that so called 'proof' by people
who can only speak on their own authority?
You have been lied to about the Bible and you have repeated those
falsehoods to us. Your ignorance should be a source of embarrassment to
you.
Now, personal attacks on me, like the above will not help you resolve
the topic in question. Dare I say that God's existence or the lack of
the above do not depend on my personal integrity (by assuming that
you're really giving me too much credit =)) So please, do restrain
your emotional outbursts, regardless of how strongly you might
disagree with me.
JBIJ