Discussion:
WHERE IS GOD
(too old to reply)
Bill M
2009-12-22 12:09:51 UTC
Permalink
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.

There are thousands of different God beliefs but NO God ever appears to or
communicates with any of the sane members of society. No sane members of
society ever directly hear from their God, dead friends or relatives. They

ONLY hear from their faith leaders.

How can any REAL God be so totally out of control and never confirm
it's existence, wishes and commands to the BILLIONS of humans it supposedly
created?

For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated

claims are not objective verifiable evidence.

I have received none. Even the Priests, Rabbis, Imams, and other religious
leaders have never provided ANY objective verifiable evidence that their
Gods exist
except in ancient myths and fables. Why would any REAL God be so secretive?
Why
would any REAL God permit the confusion of it's creations by so many false
Gods?



It is quite obvious that ALL Gods are purely the mental creations and
desires of man.

I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable

evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!


Bill M
teak
2010-01-14 17:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.
There are thousands of different God beliefs but NO God ever appears to or
communicates with any of the sane members of society. No sane members of
society ever directly hear from their God, dead friends or relatives. They
ONLY hear from their faith leaders.
How can any REAL God be so totally out of control and never confirm
it's existence, wishes and commands to the BILLIONS of humans it supposedly
created?
For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated
claims are not objective verifiable evidence.
I have received none. Even the Priests, Rabbis, Imams, and other religious
leaders have never provided ANY objective verifiable evidence that their
Gods exist
except in ancient myths and fables. Why would any REAL God be so secretive?
Why
would any REAL God permit the confusion of it's creations by so many false
Gods?
It is quite obvious that ALL Gods are purely the mental creations and
desires of man.
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
You got that right, It is fun to be a Pagan. Burningincense, Dancing
around a circle. I am a Buddhist/Atheist. When I see the human discust
and misery in life I wnder where the fuck is god in all this. He
doesn't exist, he is an opiate so the delsuional can ahndle life.

teak
duke
2010-01-14 23:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
Poor willie, he still doesn't get it.


The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Virgil
2010-01-14 23:45:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Bill M
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
Poor willie, he still doesn't get it.
The point is that without such objective verifiable evidence there is no
reason to suppose that there is anything to be got.

So that its continuing nonexistence is a major problem for such as
duckgumbo, but easily dealt with by agnostic atheists like us.
duke
2010-01-15 18:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by duke
Post by Bill M
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
Poor willie, he still doesn't get it.
The point is that without such objective verifiable evidence there is no
reason to suppose that there is anything to be got.
Yep, I keep making the mistake that you have the capacity to learn, javs.

The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Virgil
2010-01-17 01:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Virgil
Post by duke
Post by Bill M
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
Poor willie, he still doesn't get it.
The point is that without such objective verifiable evidence there is no
reason to suppose that there is anything to be got.
Yep, I keep making the mistake that you have the capacity to learn
I can, and do, learn, but not the emptiness that you try to pass off as
knowledge.
--
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the
point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
-George Bernard Shaw
teak
2010-01-15 18:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Virgil
Post by duke
Post by Bill M
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
Poor willie, he still doesn't get it.
The point is that without such objective verifiable evidence there is no
reason to suppose that there is anything to be got.
So that its continuing nonexistence is a major problem for such as
duckgumbo, but easily dealt with by agnostic atheists like us.
Haiti is the prime example of there being no god. And that is a
Catholic country. If god exists he is no different than a psychotic
sociopathic corporate executive.
Teak
Jewish Believer in Jesus
2010-01-15 19:49:13 UTC
Permalink
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?

As far as the tragedy in Haiti goes, it would not be the first time in
history when God has taken out a nation that was His in name only.
Look at the Jewish people, their story is documented in the Bible.

Sooner or later everyone dies and the door of opportunity to believe
closes at death. And if indeed there is a God, standing before His
throne for judgment is not the perfect place of realizing that He
exists, is it?

I believe Pascal's Wager sums it up quite well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager


JBIJ
Robibnikoff
2010-01-15 22:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & Belly Dancer Supreme
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Viejo Vizcacha
2010-01-15 23:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Anyone in most countries in the world who has visited shopping centres
around Christmas, can attest that there is, indeed, a Santa Claus.


VV
Post by Robibnikoff
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & Belly Dancer Supreme
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Les Hellawell
2010-01-16 11:18:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Anyone in most countries in the world who has visited shopping centres
around Christmas, can attest that there is, indeed, a Santa Claus.
And they run daytime flights from our local airport up to Lappland
during autumn so people can go and meet him in his home.

The kids can even go for a ride on his sleigh.

--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from: YORKSHIRE
The White Rose County
Jewish Believer in Jesus
2010-01-16 15:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Hellawell
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.

What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
And if the Christian belief is based on the Bible, which is a
questionable resource to some, even though it has been proven
historically accurate and supported by archeological evidence and eye
witness reports, then how valid is that so called 'proof' by people
who can only speak on their own authority?
Free Lunch
2010-01-16 15:53:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:44:10 -0800 (PST), Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Les Hellawell
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.
So you cannot disprove Santa Claus or Tinkerbell or the tooth fairy or
leprechauns.
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
Why do you think you have any reason to demand such proof? There is no
evidence for any gods, not even the one you worship, so there's no
reason for people to try to disprove something that is unsupported by
evidence.
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
And if the Christian belief is based on the Bible, which is a
questionable resource to some, even though it has been proven
historically accurate
No it has not. Why do believers insist on repeating such blatant
falsehoods?
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
and supported by archeological evidence
Not really.
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
and eye witness reports,
None at all.
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
then how valid is that so called 'proof' by people
who can only speak on their own authority?
You have been lied to about the Bible and you have repeated those
falsehoods to us. Your ignorance should be a source of embarrassment to
you.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 16:24:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:44:10 -0800 (PST), Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
Why do you think you have any reason to demand such proof? There is no
evidence for any gods, not even the one you worship, so there's no
reason for people to try to disprove something that is unsupported by
evidence.
"Jesus is real, loves you and demands you repent"

"Prove it or shut the fuck up"

"Prove he doesn't"

Do these idiots seriously imagine that is a satisfactory answer to a
question which wouldn't even have been asked if they had the common
sense and courtesy not to beg it?

Do they also not realise it is a tacit admission they have nothing
otherwise they would have given it?
Jewish Believer in Jesus
2010-01-16 16:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
On Sat, 16 Jan 2010 07:44:10 -0800 (PST), Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Les Hellawell
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.
So you cannot disprove Santa Claus or Tinkerbell or the tooth fairy or
leprechauns.
Can I point out that this discussion centers on disproving/proving
Gods existence. If you would like proof for Santa Claus' existence, I
would suggest you start a new topic. It could be quite fun.
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
Why do you think you have any reason to demand such proof? There is no
evidence for any gods, not even the one you worship, so there's no
reason for people to try to disprove something that is unsupported by
evidence.
And your opinion is based on what exactly?
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
And if the Christian belief is based on the Bible, which is a
questionable resource to some, even though it has been proven
historically accurate
No it has not. Why do believers insist on repeating such blatant
falsehoods?
Have you read the Bible? What is your particular objection?
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
and supported by archeological evidence
Not really.
How so?

Here are some examples:

* Clay Tablet, Ebla.The discovery of the Ebla archive in northern
Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the
Patriarchs to be viable. Documents written on clay tablets from around
2300 B.C. demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal
accounts are genuine. The name “Canaan” was in use in Ebla, a name
critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly
in the early chapters of the Bible. The word tehom (“the deep”) in
Genesis 1:2 was said to be a late word demonstrating the late writing
of the creation story. “Tehom” was part of the vocabulary at Ebla, in
use some 800 years before Moses. Ancient customs reflected in the
stories of the Patriarchs have also been found in clay tablets from
Nuzi and Mari.
* The Hittites were once thought to be a Biblical legend, until
their capital and records were discovered at Bogazkoy, Turkey.
* Many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were
greatly exaggerated. Recovered records from the past show that wealth
in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity
was entirely feasible.
* It was once claimed there was no Assyrian king named Sargon as
recorded in Isaiah 20:1, because this name was not known in any other
record. Then, Sargon's palace was discovered in Khorsabad, Iraq. The
very event mentioned in Isaiah 20, his capture of Ashdod, was recorded
on the palace walls. What is more, fragments of a stela memorializing
the victory were found at Ashdod itself.
* Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon,
named in Daniel 5. The last king of Babylon was Nabonidus according to
recorded history. Tablets were found showing that Belshazzar was
Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. Thus, Belshazzar
could offer to make Daniel “third highest ruler in the kingdom” (Dan.
5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, the highest available
position. Here we see the “eye-witness” nature of the Biblical record,
as is so often brought out by the discoveries of archaeology.
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
and eye witness reports,
None at all.
Please look up the following:
Jesus lived His public life in the land of Palestine under the Roman
rule of Tiberius (ad 14-37). There are four possible Roman historical
sources for his reign: Tacitus (55-117), Suetonius (70-160), Velleius
Paterculus (a contemporary), and Dio Cassius (3rd century). There are
two Jewish historical resources that describe events of this period:
Josephus (37-100?), writing in Greek, and the Rabbinical Writings
(written in Hebrew after 200, but much of which would have been in
oral form prior to that time). There are also sources (non-historians)
writing about the Christians, in which possible mentions are made
(e.g., Lucian, Galen).

Of these writings, we would NOT expect Velleius to have a reference to
Jesus (i.e. the events were just happening OUTSIDE of Velleius' home
area), and Dio Cassius is OUTSIDE of our time window of pre-3rd
century. Of the remaining Roman writers--Tacitus and Suetonius--we
have apparent references to Jesus (discussed below), even though the
main section in Tacitus covering the period 29-32ad is missing from
the manuscript tradition. If these are genuine and trustworthy
'mentions' of Jesus, then we have an amazing fact--ALL the relevant
non-Jewish historical sources mention Jesus! (Notice that this is the
OPPOSITE situation than is commonly assumed--"If Jesus was so
important, why didn't more historians write about Him?" In this case,
THEY ALL DID!).

Of the Jewish resources--Josephus and the Rabbinical writings (e.g.
Talmud, Midrash)--BOTH make clear references to the existence of Jesus
(even though the details reported may be odd). So ALL the Jewish
sources refer to Him.

In addition, there are three OTHER candidates for historical
'mentions' of Jesus that fall in the 2nd century: one Roman (Pliny the
Younger) , one possibly Syrian (Mara Bar Serapion), and one Samaritian
(Thallus). [We can also include here the writings of Celsus, Galen,
Lucian]
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
then how valid is that so called 'proof' by people
who can only speak on their own authority?
You have been lied to about the Bible and you have repeated those
falsehoods to us. Your ignorance should be a source of embarrassment to
you.
Now, personal attacks on me, like the above will not help you resolve
the topic in question. Dare I say that God's existence or the lack of
the above do not depend on my personal integrity (by assuming that
you're really giving me too much credit =)) So please, do restrain
your emotional outbursts, regardless of how strongly you might
disagree with me.

JBIJ
Robibnikoff
2010-01-16 16:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Hellawell
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
Where is the hard core proof that Leprechauns don't exist?
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & Belly Dancer Supreme
BAAWA Knight
#1557
Nomen Publicus
2010-01-16 17:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Les Hellawell
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
Where is the hard core proof that Leprechauns don't exist?
Pots of buried gold are very rarely discovered at the end of the rainbow?

This really should not be reduced to a toy logic problem. If the christian
god exists and, as they claim, knows and controls everything, there must be
obvious evidence in the real world today. Where is the evidence? As yet
nobody has presented any repeatable and testable evidence that cannot be
equally well explained by natural processes.

Come on you theists, describe a physical experiment that anybody can perform
that demonstrates the existance of your god.
--
Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire
tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most
intolerant of all men. -- Voltaire
huge
2010-01-16 17:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Les Hellawell
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:01:52 -0800 (PST), Viejo Vizcacha
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics.
As words, they share the very important quality of
having no extension, as far as anyone knows.
An extension is the thing the word refers-to.
Any intelligent person can coin any number of
words with this quality. Let me do one for you:

The Great Wamoo : A large hole through which
the gods that made this Universe traveled in the
time before time. It is the womb of the god's
mother.

See how easy that was? Yet, there is no Great Wamoo
for the word to refer-to. It is just a word classifiable
as a Great Wamoo- type word.

Now try to wrap this around your pointed tiny head:
Just because we have a word does *NOT* mean
there is anything that the word refers to -- does
not mean that the word has an extension.
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
Therefore disproving one does not necessarily disprove
the other.
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
And if the Christian belief is based on the Bible, which is a
questionable resource to some, even though it has been proven
historically accurate and supported by archeological evidence and eye
witness reports, then how valid is that so called 'proof' by people who
can only speak on their own authority?
--
huge: Not on my time you don't.
Viejo Vizcacha
2010-01-16 18:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Santa Claus? =) I must say it's a clever analogy, but an analogy never
the less. I'm not sure Santa Claus and God share an identical set of
characteristics. Therefore disproving one does not necessarily
disprove the other.
There is no proof that Santa Claus does not exist, neither is any
proof that the tooth fairy does not exist. What proof do you have
that I am not a 250 years old vampire?

There is no such thing as "proof" in these matters, if we use it as it
is used in Mathematics.

ViejoVizcacha
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
What I am wondering is, where is the hard core proof that God does not
exist?
And if the Christian belief is based on the Bible, which is a
questionable resource to some, even though it has been proven
historically accurate and supported by archeological evidence and eye
witness reports, then how valid is that so called 'proof' by people
who can only speak on their own authority?
Andrew
2010-01-15 23:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering
are not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 00:26:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering
are not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
Not if you allow the same ad hoc getouts Christians use for their God.
Andrew
2010-01-16 00:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering
are not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
Not if you allow the same ad hoc getouts Christians use for their God.
That would be the God that, in Christ, was scourged, nailed to a cross
and died as a consequence, would it? Sound pretty close to the known
laws of nature to me.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 01:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering
are not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
Not if you allow the same ad hoc getouts Christians use for their God.
That would be the God that, in Christ, was scourged, nailed to a cross
and died as a consequence, would it? Sound pretty close to the known
laws of nature to me.
Ohh looky, a red herring.

But where did you demonstrate that this was any more than just
religious fiction, because there is no evidence of that outside
Christian tradition?

Please try not to be so stupid.

And address the point that you can't disprove Santa Claus if you grant
it the same cop outs.
Bill M
2011-01-18 01:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Andrew's tilted mind create all kinds of theories that support his
nonexistent God. I found I wasted my time answering his pure nonsesne.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering
are not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
Not if you allow the same ad hoc getouts Christians use for their God.
That would be the God that, in Christ, was scourged, nailed to a cross
and died as a consequence, would it? Sound pretty close to the known
laws of nature to me.
Ohh looky, a red herring.
But where did you demonstrate that this was any more than just
religious fiction, because there is no evidence of that outside
Christian tradition?
Please try not to be so stupid.
And address the point that you can't disprove Santa Claus if you grant
it the same cop outs.
Father Haskell
2010-01-16 02:24:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering
are not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
Not if you allow the same ad hoc getouts Christians use for their God.
That would be the God that, in Christ, was scourged, nailed to a cross
and died as a consequence, would it? Sound pretty close to the known
laws of nature to me.
According to all known laws of nature, the body would
have been eaten by scavengers before it was cold.
Ala
2010-01-16 01:41:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
In principle, probably yes. A being that can consume a mince pie and a
glass of sherry would be one that is corporeal. Such a being would be
subject to the known laws of nature. Furthermore, even if we accept the
possibility that Santa is non-corporeal, the presents he is delivering are
not. They would be subject to the known laws of nature.
"It takes some experimentation and some leaps of faith," says former New
York Giants running back Tiki Barber, one of the few running backs who
started his career in the 1990s and became known for his durability. Mr.
Barber says a coach once told him it was "literally an act of God" that he
hadn't been killed. "I just knew how to take care of my body," Mr. Barber
says. "I knew how to listen to it

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704130904574644613364152506.html
Andrew
2010-01-15 23:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 00:27:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
Andrew
2010-01-16 00:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus. We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 01:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus. We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
Of course it can - in the real world outside your religion where you
are still using the fallacy of special pleading.

"It's different because it's God".

But only to its believers.

You have to explain WHY it is different.

Without begging any more questions.

In the world outside your religion.
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 01:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus. We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
This has to be the ultimate in special pleading: "It cann't be special
pleading because it's God".

Sheesh.
Andrew
2010-01-16 18:08:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus. We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
This has to be the ultimate in special pleading: "It cann't be special
pleading because it's God".
Sheesh.
Except that isn't what I said. Try reading it again. You, on the other
hand are sliding into the fallacy of suggesting that God is like Santa
Claus. On what basis - other than your own presumed assumption that
neither exists?
Christopher A. Lee
2010-01-16 20:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus. We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
This has to be the ultimate in special pleading: "It can't be special
pleading because it's God".
Sheesh.
Except that isn't what I said.
That's what it boils down to.

Because god is different to you you expect it to be diffenet for
everybody else too.
Post by Andrew
Try reading it again.
Try thinking outside yiour religion for a change.
Post by Andrew
You, on the other
hand are sliding into the fallacy of suggesting that God is like Santa
Claus.
It is, in the sense that they are both beliefs.

WHICH IS ALL YOURS IS TO ANYBODY WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU DO.

Take off your god-blinders and try to think outside yur religion for a
change.

I commtted no fallacy. And you have yo know that because even you
can't be that stupid.
Post by Andrew
On what basis - other than your own presumed assumption that
neither exists?
What "my own presumed assumption that neither exists" are you lying
about?
Father Haskell
2010-01-16 02:29:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus.
A childhood friend of mine still believed in Santa after she
was 12. She eventually outgrew that foolish belief, as we
all do, and now believes in a whole new set of foolish
beliefs called "christianity."
Post by Andrew
We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
Another difference is, no one ever said Santa was an
asshole. The same cannot be said for god.
teak
2010-01-20 18:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Father Haskell
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus.
A childhood friend of mine still believed in Santa after she
was 12.  She eventually outgrew that foolish belief, as we
all do, and now believes in a whole new set of foolish
beliefs called "christianity."
Post by Andrew
We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
Another difference is, no one ever said Santa was an
asshole.  The same cannot be said for god.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I think Santa is an Asshole, but not he Easter Bunny.

teak
Jesus Christ , a long - term fucker of the Prostitute St . Mary 's cunt hole , is an Unique Son of GOD
2010-01-21 03:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Santa Claude is my bastard son .
Post by teak
Post by Father Haskell
Post by Andrew
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
Yes it can. You apply the fallacy of special pleading to your pretend
friend.
I'm applying nothing of the sort. I'm noting that NO ONE (apart from
the small children we exclude from the communal fiction) actually
believes in Santa Claus.
A childhood friend of mine still believed in Santa after she
was 12.  She eventually outgrew that foolish belief, as we
all do, and now believes in a whole new set of foolish
beliefs called "christianity."
Post by Andrew
We all KNOW that we are sharing a kind of joke
between ourselves. The same cannot be said for God
Another difference is, no one ever said Santa was an
asshole.  The same cannot be said for god.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I think Santa is an Asshole, but not he Easter Bunny.
teak
Free Lunch
2010-01-16 01:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Jewish Believer in Jesus
I suppose we really do have a dilemma. Is it possible to prove that
there is no God?
Is it possible to prove there is no Santa Claus?
Oh - and as I've been Santa Claus, I have clear and objective evidence
that he doesn't really exist. He is a recognised communal fiction. The
same cannot be shown to be true of God
George Burns and Morgan Freeman have played God in movies. Does that
also make it clear and objective evidence that God does not exist?
Farticus
2010-02-23 02:43:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
... mass of what, crap?
Bill M
2011-01-18 01:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Bill M
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples
imaginations!
Bill M
Poor willie, he still doesn't get it.
So this is your evidence!!!
Post by duke
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Sidney Lambe
2011-01-18 01:15:11 UTC
Permalink
On alt.religion.christian, Bill M <***@netzero.net> wrote:

'Atheism/Skepticism' are just groups of militant Darwinists/Scientific
Materialists, out to eliminate the religuous competition.

Like all true religious fanatics, they think their beliefs
are facts. <YAWN>
Subject: WHERE IS GOD
Everywhere. God is the gestalt consciousness that creates and
is and is more than everything that exists. There is no outside.
there is no 'Evil'. There is no other creative source.

Everything that exists has consciousness and awareness at
its own level.

We are all, literally, a part of the body of God.

Some Native Americans called God, 'The Spirit That Moves
In All Things'.

[delete]

Sid
--
I am a Magickal Being
My Second Spell is Innocence
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
usenet4444 (AT) gmail (DOT) com
Bill M
2011-01-18 15:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Your problem is that you have an over active imagination.

It is correct to assume we do not know or understand the existence of the
Universe. Opinions are just that - opinions.
Post by Sidney Lambe
'Atheism/Skepticism' are just groups of militant Darwinists/Scientific
Materialists, out to eliminate the religuous competition.
Like all true religious fanatics, they think their beliefs
are facts. <YAWN>
Subject: WHERE IS GOD
Everywhere. God is the gestalt consciousness that creates and
is and is more than everything that exists. There is no outside.
there is no 'Evil'. There is no other creative source.
Everything that exists has consciousness and awareness at
its own level.
We are all, literally, a part of the body of God.
Some Native Americans called God, 'The Spirit That Moves
In All Things'.
[delete]
Sid
--
I am a Magickal Being
My Second Spell is Innocence
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
usenet4444 (AT) gmail (DOT) com
Sidney Lambe
2011-01-18 16:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
Your problem is that you have an over active imagination.
Your problem is that you accept second-hand superstitious garbage
as fact.

I observe reality, without and within, with an open mind.

Takes some practice, but it is well worth the effort.

It allows me to dismiss ficticious garbage like your worldview
without a qualm.

[delete]

Sid
--
I am a Magickal Being
My Second Spell is Innocence
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
usenet4444 (AT) gmail (DOT) com
_ G O D _
2011-01-18 16:36:37 UTC
Permalink
I'm always here, my children, even you aren't able
to see me. - And I frequently read your messages....
--
_____________________________________________________
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
I intend to last long enough to put out of business all COck-suckers
and other beneficiaries of the institutionalized slavery and genocide.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The army that will defeat terrorism doesn't wear uniforms, or drive
Humvees, or calls in air-strikes. It doesn't have a high command, or
high security, or a high budget. The army that can defeat terrorism
does battle quietly, clearing minefields and vaccinating children. It
undermines military dictatorships and military lobbyists. It subverts
sweatshops and special interests.Where people feel powerless, it
helps them organize for change, and where people are powerful, it
reminds them of their responsibility." ~~~~ Author Unknown ~~~~
___________________________________________________
--
Sidney Lambe
2011-01-18 17:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by _ G O D _
I'm always here, my children, even you aren't able
to see me. - And I frequently read your messages....
--
_____________________________________________________
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
I intend to last long enough to put out of business all COck-suckers
and other beneficiaries of the institutionalized slavery and genocide.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"The army that will defeat terrorism doesn't wear uniforms, or drive
Humvees, or calls in air-strikes. It doesn't have a high command, or
high security, or a high budget. The army that can defeat terrorism
does battle quietly, clearing minefields and vaccinating children. It
undermines military dictatorships and military lobbyists. It subverts
sweatshops and special interests.Where people feel powerless, it
helps them organize for change, and where people are powerful, it
reminds them of their responsibility." ~~~~ Author Unknown ~~~~
___________________________________________________
Well, that's sounds great. But the world's greatest terrorist
is the U.S., and pushing this destructive and greedy and elitist
supermaterialistic lifestyle on the rest of the world is not
doing anything but compounding the problem.

You are displaying the pathological arrogance of a Typical American
Asshole.

Your country is SHIT.

An abomination in the eyes of God.

Sid
--
I am a Magickal Being
My Second Spell is Innocence
http://tinyurl.com/7vs9zb
usenet4444 (AT) gmail (DOT) com
_ G O D _
2011-01-18 18:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sidney Lambe
Post by _ G O D _
I'm always here, my children, even you aren't able
to see me. - And I frequently read your messages....
Well, that's sounds great. But the world's greatest terrorist
is the U.S., and pushing this destructive and greedy and elitist
supermaterialistic lifestyle on the rest of the world is not
doing anything but compounding the problem.
You are displaying the pathological arrogance
of a Typical American Asshole.
Your country is SHIT.
You lost me there, Sidney Lambe.
Therefore, I urge to find me again....
--
_____________________________________________________
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml
I intend to last long enough to put out of business all COck-suckers
and other beneficiaries of the institutionalized slavery and genocide.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The army that will defeat terrorism doesn't wear uniforms, or drive
Humvees, or calls in air-strikes. It doesn't have a high command, or
high security, or a high budget. The army that can defeat terrorism
does battle quietly, clearing minefields and vaccinating children. It
undermines military dictatorships and military lobbyists. It subverts
sweatshops and special interests.Where people feel powerless, it
helps them organize for change, and where people are powerful, it
reminds them of their responsibility." ~~~~ Author Unknown ~~~~
___________________________________________________
--
CUNTICA
2011-01-18 18:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Dork!

Pepsi
2011-01-18 01:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Cooking the fries, at Kentucky Fried.
Viejo Vizcacha
2010-01-14 18:11:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.
There are thousands of different God beliefs but NO God ever appears to or
communicates with any of the sane members of society. No sane members of
society ever directly hear from their God, dead friends or relatives. They
ONLY hear from their faith leaders.
How can any REAL God be so totally out of control and never confirm
it's existence, wishes and commands to the BILLIONS of humans it supposedly
created?
For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated
claims are not objective verifiable evidence.
I have received none. Even the Priests, Rabbis, Imams, and other religious
leaders have never provided ANY objective verifiable evidence that their
Gods exist
except in ancient myths and fables. Why would any REAL God be so secretive?
Why
would any REAL God permit the confusion of it's creations by so many false
Gods?
It is quite obvious that ALL Gods are purely the mental creations and
desires of man.
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
God exists. As of lately he's been busy moving tectonic plates.

When I see things like the Haiti's earthquake I realize the futility
of praying to god. Either he/she does no exist, or he/she exists and
does not care, or maybe he/she even enjoys watching the suffering. In
any case, it makes no sense to pray to him/her.

VV
Father Haskell
2010-01-14 23:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.
It's insane on the face of it, isn't it? That's why the
priests invented hell.
Jesus Christ , a long - term fucker of the Prostitute St . Mary 's cunt hole , is an Unique Son of GOD
2010-01-17 07:35:04 UTC
Permalink
are you calling for Me ?
Post by Bill M
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.
There are thousands of different God beliefs but NO God ever appears to or
communicates with any of the sane members of society. No sane members of
society ever directly hear from their God, dead friends or relatives. They
ONLY hear from their faith leaders.
How can any REAL God be so totally out of control and never confirm
it's existence, wishes and commands to the BILLIONS of humans it supposedly
created?
For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated
claims are not objective verifiable evidence.
I have received none. Even the Priests, Rabbis, Imams, and other religious
leaders have never provided ANY objective verifiable evidence that their
Gods exist
except in ancient myths and fables. Why would any REAL God be so secretive?
Why
would any REAL God permit the confusion of it's creations by so many false
Gods?
It is quite obvious that ALL Gods are purely the mental creations and
desires of man.
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
livvy
2010-01-21 04:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill M
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.
There are thousands of different God beliefs but NO God ever appears to or
communicates with any of the sane members of society. No sane members of
society ever directly hear from their God, dead friends or relatives. They
ONLY hear from their faith leaders.
How can any REAL God be so totally out of control and never confirm
it's existence, wishes and commands to the BILLIONS of humans it supposedly
created?
For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated
claims are not objective verifiable evidence.
I have received none. Even the Priests, Rabbis, Imams, and other religious
leaders have never provided ANY objective verifiable evidence that their
Gods exist
except in ancient myths and fables. Why would any REAL God be so secretive?
Why
would any REAL God permit the confusion of it's creations by so many false
Gods?
It is quite obvious that ALL Gods are purely the mental creations and
desires of man.
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
"I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies. "

Ok....so what?


"For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me
with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated ...." you gotta be kidding.

Why waste your time, or theirs? You don't believe, some do, neither
owes the other a thing. A challenge? yeah, that's how to engage
folks.....a challenge. People don't have enough challenges.....
lottery nan
2010-01-26 11:47:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by livvy
Post by Bill M
I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies.
There are thousands of different God beliefs but NO God ever appears to or
communicates with any of the sane members of society. No sane members of
society ever directly hear from their God, dead friends or relatives. They
ONLY hear from their faith leaders.
How can any REAL God be so totally out of control and never confirm
it's existence, wishes and commands to the BILLIONS of humans it supposedly
created?
For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated
claims are not objective verifiable evidence.
I have received none. Even the Priests, Rabbis, Imams, and other religious
leaders have never provided ANY objective verifiable evidence that their
Gods exist
except in ancient myths and fables. Why would any REAL God be so secretive?
Why
would any REAL God permit the confusion of it's creations by so many false
Gods?
It is quite obvious that ALL Gods are purely the mental creations and
desires of man.
I again challenge any religious leader or God believer to provide objective
verifiable
evidence that their God exists in reality - not just peoples imaginations!
Bill M
"I am absolutely amazed by people that still believe in Gods and
habitually follow their religious myths, fables and ceremonies. "
Ok....so what?
"For over 60 years (I'm 85) I have challenged people to provide me
with
objective verifiable evidence that ANY Gods exist. Opinions and
unsubstantiated ...."    you gotta be kidding.
Why waste your time, or theirs?   You don't believe, some do, neither
owes the other a thing.     A challenge?    yeah, that's how to engage
folks.....a challenge.    People don't have enough challenges.....
God is here.read my posts
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