"God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell" ... how do we know who is really right?

Suggest you do not waste your time - there are no gods, or are you just
another one of the billions making money out of man's persistence in
believing in some myth or other?

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, Godthat is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

AWS

2004-06-17 12:37:16 UTC

I knew if I posted this message I would find the person who had all
the answers. Thank you so much, my search is over. As for making
money off of man's persistence in believing in myths, authors have to
thank people like you and fundamentalist religious leaders, that keep
fueling the fire of controversy with absolute statements that they
have the answers to something they will never know; until were dead
that is. But now that I have my answers to life, I can focus on making
money by writting about billions being made by porn stars.

Post by bob young
Suggest you do not waste your time - there are no gods, or are you just
another one of the billions making money out of man's persistence in
believing in some myth or other?

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, God?that is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

Saul_Sabia

2004-06-17 20:28:38 UTC

Post by AWS
But now that I have my answers to life, I can focus on making
money by writting about billions being made by porn stars.

well, technically it's the people who _hire_ the porn stars who are
making billions. but what's a little quibble, mm?

(kind of like the people who _fund_ the churches are the ones who make
the money off of the tithing of its members)

Saul Sabia
***@yahooo.com

Reslight

2004-06-17 17:35:24 UTC

How do we know who really is right?

Only in the scriptures of the Holy Bible do we find satsifying answers to
this question. Only in the Bible is it revealed why there is so much
delusion and confusion, and why God is permitting it. God knows that mankind
has misunderstood him. Yet, as the scriptures tell us, very few will come to
understanding in this age through the aid of the holy spirit. In the age to
come, all will be made plain to all.

http://reslight.addr.com/l-evil.html
http://reslight.addr.com/l-atone.html

Christian love,
Ronald
alt.atheism removed from crossposts

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, God-that is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

AWS

2004-06-18 14:54:57 UTC

You're point is well taken. However, the difficulty is whose
interpretation of the Bible is correct? As a Christian I am sure you
will indicate the New Testament, yet Islam and Judasim - who share the
same God - will differ.

AWS
"God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell" www.awschade.com

Post by Reslight
How do we know who really is right?
Only in the scriptures of the Holy Bible do we find satsifying answers to
this question. Only in the Bible is it revealed why there is so much
delusion and confusion, and why God is permitting it. God knows that mankind
has misunderstood him. Yet, as the scriptures tell us, very few will come to
understanding in this age through the aid of the holy spirit. In the age to
come, all will be made plain to all.
http://reslight.addr.com/l-evil.html
http://reslight.addr.com/l-atone.html
Christian love,
Ronald
alt.atheism removed from crossposts

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, God-that is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

bob young

2004-06-19 05:26:03 UTC

Post by AWS
You're point is well taken. However, the difficulty is whose
interpretation of the Bible is correct? As a Christian I am sure you
will indicate the New Testament, yet Islam and Judasim - who share the
same God - will differ.

What do you expect from man made beliefs? If a god ever arrives that god will ensure [being a god that is] that there is no
confusion whatsoever about who that god is and what it wants.

Until then the rest is mythology

Post by AWS
AWS
"God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell" www.awschade.com

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, God-that is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

Reslight

2004-06-19 13:27:27 UTC

What do you expect from man made beliefs? If a god ever arrives that god

will ensure [being a god that is] that there is no

Post by bob young
confusion whatsoever about who that god is and what it wants.

Yahweh, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, will reveal himself to all in
due time, and then there will be no more confusion about who Yahweh is. In
the meantime, God is allowing mankind to try out all of his own ways under
subjection to vanity.

"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher; "Vanity of vanities, all is
vanity." -- Ecclesiastes 1:2

this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be
exercised. -- Ecclesiastes 1:13

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of
Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be
delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the
children of God. -- Romans 8:21, all of the above from the New King James
Version

they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother,
saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to
the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and
their sin will I remember no more. -- Jeremiah 31:34, World English Bible
translation (WEBT), see also Hebrews 8:1.

It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh's house
shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be raised above
the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many peoples shall go and say,
"Come, let's go up to the mountain of Yahweh, To the house of the God of
Jacob; And he will teach us of his ways, And we will walk in his paths. For
out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.
He will judge between the nations, And will decide concerning many peoples;
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into
pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall
they learn war any more. -- Isaiah 2:2-4, WEBT

In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the
blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.-- Isaiah 29:18

Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and
his name one. -- Zephaniah 14:9, WEBT

Christian love,
Ronald

bob young

2004-06-20 05:49:18 UTC

What do you expect from man made beliefs? If a god ever arrives that god

will ensure [being a god that is] that there is no

Post by bob young
confusion whatsoever about who that god is and what it wants.

The same rubbish that no doubt your great great great great grandfather
spouted!

Post by bob young
"Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher; "Vanity of vanities, all is
vanity." -- Ecclesiastes 1:2
this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be
exercised. -- Ecclesiastes 1:13
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of
Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be
delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the
children of God. -- Romans 8:21, all of the above from the New King James
Version
they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother,
saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to
the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and
their sin will I remember no more. -- Jeremiah 31:34, World English Bible
translation (WEBT), see also Hebrews 8:1.
It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh's house
shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be raised above
the hills; And all nations shall flow to it. Many peoples shall go and say,
"Come, let's go up to the mountain of Yahweh, To the house of the God of
Jacob; And he will teach us of his ways, And we will walk in his paths. For
out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem.
He will judge between the nations, And will decide concerning many peoples;
And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into
pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall
they learn war any more. -- Isaiah 2:2-4, WEBT
In that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the
blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.-- Isaiah 29:18
Yahweh will be King over all the earth. In that day Yahweh will be one, and
his name one. -- Zephaniah 14:9, WEBT
Christian love,
Ronald

Reslight

2004-06-22 16:41:16 UTC

What do you expect from man made beliefs? If a god ever arrives that god

will ensure [being a god that is] that there is no

Post by bob young
confusion whatsoever about who that god is and what it wants.

The same rubbish that no doubt your great great great great grandfather
spouted!

I doubt that he would have had any understanding of why God is permitting
evil.
http://reslight.addr.com/suffer.html
http://reslight.addr.com/l-evil.html

Christian love,
Ronald

Reslight

2004-06-19 13:12:27 UTC

The truth and therefore, "true religion", as many would put it, according to
the Bible, is not revealed to everyone. The entire Bible, both the OT and
NT, must be taken together to understand the truth.

Christian love,
Ronald

bob young

2004-06-19 05:23:37 UTC

Post by Reslight
How do we know who really is right?
Only in the scriptures of the Holy Bible do we find satsifying answers to
this question.

you are severely deluded if you believe 'answers' can be found in a book
written by primitives for primitives.

Post by Reslight
Only in the Bible is it revealed why there is so much
delusion and confusion, and why God is permitting it. God knows that mankind
has misunderstood him.

Very convenient, but meaningless

Post by Reslight
Yet, as the scriptures tell us, very few will come to
understanding in this age through the aid of the holy spirit. In the age to
come, all will be made plain to all.

We will not be alive to have anything revealed after dirty bombs spread in the
name of some different god wipe the rest of us out. They are not concerned
with time, they will wait their opportunity.

Humans are MAD, insane

Created by god - what rubbish

Man created gods in their own image

Post by Reslight
http://reslight.addr.com/l-evil.html
http://reslight.addr.com/l-atone.html
Christian love,
Ronald
alt.atheism removed from crossposts

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, God-that is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

Reslight

2004-06-19 13:51:44 UTC

Post by bob young
We will not be alive to have anything revealed after dirty bombs spread in the
name of some different god wipe the rest of us out. They are not concerned
with time, they will wait their opportunity.

Yes, unless God steps in to put a stop to this madness, no flesh would be
saved.

Except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But
for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened. -- Matthew 24:22

However, all who die God will raise back to life through his Son, so all the
destructive works of man will be overcome.

Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs
will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who have done good, to the
resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of
judgment. -- John 5:28,29.

In that coming judgment day for the world, mankind will learn righteousness.

Satan, "the god of this world," has for centuries blinded the minds of the
vast majority. (2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 12:9) Darkness has covered the
earth and "gross darkness the people." However, in the world's great
judgment day Satan is bound, "that he should deceive the nations no more,
until the thousand years are ended." -- Isaiah 60:2, Revelation 20:2,3,7.

"In that day," the 1,000-year reign of Messiah, when He will judge mankind,
"the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the
sea." Then it will be said: "Look, this is our God. We have waited for him,
and he will save us . . . . We will be glad and rejoice in his
salvation." -- Isaiah 11:9,10; 25:6-9; 40:5; 52:10: Jeremiah 31:34; Habakkuk
2:14.

Post by bob young
Humans are MAD, insane

Got that right.

God gave them up to a reprobate mind. -- Romans 1:28.

Post by bob young
Created by god - what rubbish

When God first placed man on the earth, he knew God, and did not have a
reprobate mind. The first humans, although God created them upright, and
they knew God, they sought their own devices, and thus became "vain in their
reasoning". -- Romans 1:21; Ecclesiastes 7:29.

http://reslight.addr.com/understanding.html
http://reslight.addr.com/dayjudg.html

Christian love,
Ronald

bob young

2004-06-20 05:09:24 UTC

Post by bob young
We will not be alive to have anything revealed after dirty bombs spread in

the

Post by bob young
name of some different god wipe the rest of us out. They are not

concerned

Post by bob young
with time, they will wait their opportunity.

Yes, unless God steps in to put a stop to this madness, no flesh would be
saved.
Except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved. But
for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened. -- Matthew 24:22
However, all who die God will raise back to life through his Son, so all the
destructive works of man will be overcome.
Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs
will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who have done good, to the
resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of
judgment. -- John 5:28,29.
In that coming judgment day for the world, mankind will learn righteousness.
Satan, "the god of this world," has for centuries blinded the minds of the
vast majority. (2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 12:9) Darkness has covered the
earth and "gross darkness the people." However, in the world's great
judgment day Satan is bound, "that he should deceive the nations no more,
until the thousand years are ended." -- Isaiah 60:2, Revelation 20:2,3,7.
"In that day," the 1,000-year reign of Messiah, when He will judge mankind,
"the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the
sea." Then it will be said: "Look, this is our God. We have waited for him,
and he will save us . . . . We will be glad and rejoice in his
salvation." -- Isaiah 11:9,10; 25:6-9; 40:5; 52:10: Jeremiah 31:34; Habakkuk
2:14.

Post by bob young
Humans are MAD, insane

Got that right.
God gave them up to a reprobate mind. -- Romans 1:28.

Post by bob young
Created by god - what rubbish

Absolute Primitive Crap

No god is going to save anyone. Who is going to be saved, just the followers
of your so called Christian god or all the followers, past and present, of
these gods?:

[Note under African Gods the number devoted to Supremacy]

Allah, Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, , El Shaddai, Elohim
Eshu, Ereshkigal,
Frigga, Frey, Freya, Gaea, Lord Genesa, Hades, Hebe, Hera, Helios, Hel,
Hephaestus,
Hermes, Hestia, Horus, Ibeji, Ifa, Inanna, Indra, Ishana, Ishtar,
Isis, Janus, Juno, Jehovah, Jove, Jupiter, Kali. Krishna Kronos, Korravai,
Loki, Lugh, Lord Indra, Manitou, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Mercurius, Morrigan,
Nahuiquiahuitl, Nanahuatzin, Nephthys, Neptune, Obatala, Odin, Ogun,
Oshosi, Oshun, Osiris, Oya, Orunmila, Olokun, Olodumare, Pluto,
Persephone, Poseidon, Proserpina, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Lord Rama, Rhea, Saturn,
Set,
Selene, Shango, Lord Siva, Tammuz, Thor, Tir, Tiw, Uranus, Venus, Vesta,
Vishnu,
Vesta, Vulcan, Wotan, Yahweh, Yemaya, Zeus,and Lint® the Laundry God.

African gods:

Abassi [Sky]
Abonsam [Evil]
Abora [Supreme]
Abzu [Water]
Acoran [Supreme]
Adaheli [Sun]
Adro [Sky]
Adroa [Sky]
Agassou [Panther]
Agbe-Naete [Water]
Age [Animals]
Aigamuxa [Monster]
Ajalamo[Unborn Children]
Aje [Wealth]
Ajok [Supreme]
Akonadi [Oracle]
Akongo [Supreme]
Akuj [Supreme]
Ala [Earth/Fertility]
Alatangana [Creator]
Amma [Creator]
Anansi [Trickster]
Anyiewo [Snake]
Aondo [Creator]
Apa [Creator]
Apedemak [War]
Arawa [Moon]
Arebati [Sky]
Arom [Contracts]
Arsan Duolai [Underworld]
Asase Ya [Earth]
Ashiakle [Wealth]
Asis [Sun]
Astar [Sky]
Ataa Naa
Nyongmo
[Creator]
Ataokoloinona [Supreme]
Atete [Fertility]
Avrikiti [Fishermen]
Ayabba
[Ayaba] [Hearth]

Bacax [Cave]
Bagba [Wind]
Balubaal [Earth+]
Bandara [Superior Gods]
Banga [Clear water]
Behanzin [Fish]
Beher [Sea]
Bera Pennu [Vegetation]
Bo [Warriors]
Bomazi[Ancestors]
Buadza [WInd]
Buck[River]
Buku [Sky]
Bumba [Creator]

Cagn [Creator]
(!Kaggen)
Cghene [Creator]
Chiuke
(Chuku) [Creator]
Chiata [Supreme]
Chwezi [Hero]
Col [Rain]
Chikara [Sky]

Danh
(Dan Ayido Hwedo) [Snake]
Deng [Sky]
Deohako [Beans+]
Dii Mauri [Moorish Gods]
Dongo [Outer Space]
Dugbo [Earth]
Dxui [Creator]

Emeli-hi [Supreme]
Eranoranhan [Protector]
Eshu (Elegba) [Trickster]

Fa [Destiny]
Famien [Fertility]
Faro [Sky/Water]
Fidi Mukullu [Creator]

Garang and Abuk [First Humans]
Gbeni [Chief]
Gei (Gou) [Moon]
Gu [War/Smiths]
Gua [Sky]
Gulu [Supreme]
Gunab [Evil]
Guruhi [Evil]
Gurzil [Bull]
Gwalu [Rain]
Hammon [Setting Sun]
Harun and Haruna [Water Spirits]
Heitsi-Eibib [Sorcerer]
Hevioss [Thunder]
Huntin [Tree]
Huvean [Creator]

Ifa [Oracul]
Ikenga [Supreme]
Imana [Creator]
Iruwa [Sun]
Juok [Creator]
Kalumba [Creator]
Kalunga Supreme]
Katavi [Demonic]
Ka Tyeleo [Supreme]
Khebieso [Lightening]
Kho-dumo-dumo [Demon]
Kholomodumo [Monster]
Khuzwane [Creator]
Kibuka [War]
Kokola [Guardian]
Kwammang-a [Supreme]
Kwoth [Spirit]
Kyala [Creator]

Legba [Trickster]
Leza [Chief]
Libanza [Supreme]
Lisa [Chameleon]
Lyangombe[Chief]
Macardit [Demon]
Mantis [Creator]
Massim-Biambe [Creator]
Mawu [Sky]
Mawu-Lisa [Supreme Couple]
Mbotumbo [Supreme]
Medr [Earth]
Moomb [Creator]
Mon [?]
Mugasa
Mugu [Sky]
Mujaji [Rain]
Mukasa [Supreme]
Mula Djadi [Creator]
Muluku [Supreme]
Mulungu
Mungu [Creator]
Mungo (Mungu) [?]
Musa (Teaching]
Musisi [Supreme]
Mwari [Supreme]

Nampa [Personal]
Nana-Bouclou [First Gods]
Nana Buluk [Creator]
Ndjambi [Sky]
Ndriananahary [Supreme]
Nduru [Jungle]
Nenaunir [Storm]
Nesshoue [River]
Ngai ('Ngai) [Creator]
Ngewo-wa [Creator]
Ngworekara [Demon]
Niamye [Supreme]
Nkosi Yama'kosi [Supreme]
Nommo [Elemental]
Nommo [Spirit]
Nyama [Animal]
Nyambe [Supreme]
Nyambi (Nyambe) [Supreme]
Nyame
Nyami-Nyami [Guardian]
Nyankopon (Ashanti:Nyame) [Supreme]
Nyamia Ama [Supreme]
Nyasaye [Supeme]
Nzambi (Nzambi)
Mpunguo) [Supreme]
Nzame [Supreme]

Obassi Osaw [Supreme]
Obatala [Sky]
Oduduwa (Odudua) [Earth]
Ogun (Ogoun) War]
Olokula [Sea]
Olorun [Supreme]
Omumbo-Rombonga [Tree of Life]
Orahan [Supreme]
Orisa Nla [Creator]
Orishako [Agriculture]
Orunjan [Midday Sun]
Orunmila [Compassion]
Oshalla [?]
Osun [Beauty and Love]
Oya [Passion and Power]

Pemba (Bemba) Mother]
Qandisa [Demon]
Qamata[Quamta] Supreme]

Rock-Sene [Supreme]
Ruwa [Supreme]
Sagbata [Smallpox]
Sakarabru [Medicine]
Sakpata [Smallpox]
Sango [Thunder]
Shango [Thunder]
So [Lightening]

Tano [River]
Tore [Forest]
Trowu[Spirits]
Tsui'goab [Rain]
Twe [Lake]

Umvelinqangi [Creator]
Unkulunkulu [Supreme]
Unumbotte [Creator]

Waka [Rain]
Wele [Supreme]
Wulbari [Supreme]
Wuni [Supreme]

Xewioso [Thunder]
Yemaja [Creation]
Yo [Impersonal]

Zin [Water]

Table of Asian Gods:

BUDDHIST

Abhijnaraja [Physician]
Abhimukhi [One of the Bhumis]
Acala [?]
Adhimukticarya [One of the Bhumis]
Adhimuktivasita [One of the Bhumis]
Adibuddha [First]
Adidharma [Primeval]
Aizen Myo-o [Protective]
Ajaya [?]
Akasagarbha(Tibetan Nam-mkhai
Aksayajnana-Karmanda [Literature]
Aksobhya (Japanese Ashuku, Chinese A-Chu'u) [One of the Dhyani]
Amida [Savior]
Amitabha [A Dhyani]
Amitayus [Longevity]
Amoghapasa [see Avalokitesvara]
Amoghasiddhi [A Dhyani]
Anantamukhi [Literature]
Arapacana [Book and Sword]
Arcismati [Bhumis]
Arhat [A Saint]
Arthapratisamvit [Logical Analysis]
Arya-Tara [Sakti]
Asokakanta [avatar Marici]
Asokottamasri [Physician]
Astabhuja-Kurukulla [avatar Kurukulla]
Asura [Group of Demons]
Avalokitesvara(Avalokita, Lokesvara) [Dhyani Present Age]
Ayurvasita[One vasitas]

Balaparamita [Philosophy]
Bhaisajyaguru(Sman-bla, Otaci,Yao-shih-fo, Yakushi)[Physician]
Bhima[Attendant]
Bhrkuti[Female]
Bhrkuti-Tara [Mother]
Bhumi [Spiritual Spheres]
Bhutadarma [Demon Controller]
Bi-har [Protector]
Bodhidharma [Monk]
Bodhisattva (Chinese Pu-sa) [Born to be Englightened]
Buddhabodhiprabhavasita [Vasitas]
Buddhalocana [Female Buddha]
Budha [Mercury]
Butcho [?]

Chandarosana [Mahayana]
Charcika (Carcika) [Mahayana]
Chakravartin [World Ruler]
Chattrosnisa [An Usnisa]
Chaturmaharajas (Caturmaharajas) [Four Great Kings]
Chittavista [Vashitas]
Citipati [Graveyard Demons]
Cunda [Literature]
Da-shi-zhi [Bodhisattva]
Dadimunda [Temples]
Dainichi' [Purity/Wisdom]
Dakini [Demons]
Dala Kadavara [Demon]
Devaputra [Gods of Lower Rank]
Dhanada [avatar Amoghasiddhi]
Dharani [Mystical Texts]
Dharmadhatuvagisvara [Dharma]
Dharmakirtisagaraghosa [Physician]
Dharmamegha [Bhumis]
Dharmapala ,Chinese Fu Ha [Protective Dieties]
Dharmapratisamvit [Nature Analysis]
Dharmavasita [Vasitas]
Dhritarashtra (Pali Dhatarattha) [One of the 4 World Guardians]
Dhupa [Mother]
Dhupatara [Mahayana]
Dhvajagrakeyura [avatar Aksobhya]
Dhyanaparamita [Philosophy]
Dhyani-Bodhisattvas [Five Bodhisattvas]
Dhyani-Buddhas [Five Meditators]
Di-zang [Bodhisattvas of Hell]
Dvarapala [?]

Ekajata [Terrible]
Emma-o [Judges the Dead]

Fudo [WIsdom]

Guan Yin [bodhisattva]

Hariti [Ate Children]
Hayagriva [Protection]
Heruka [Protection]
Hevajra [Protection]

Ida-Ten [Law/Monestaries]

Jambhala [avatar Vausravana]
Janguli [Snakebite cure]
Jian Lao [Earth/Permanence]
Jizo [Compassion]
Juichimen [Mercy]

Kali devia [avatar Lha-mo]

Kannon [Japanese bodhisattva]
Khasarpana(Khasarpana-Lokesvara) [Indian bodhisattva]
Ki Fudo [avatar Fudo-Myo-o]
Krodhadevatas [Inspire Terror]
Ksitigarbha [One of 8 bodhisattva]
Kuan-yin (Kwannon) [Mercy]
Kujaku Myoo [Esoteric]
Kurukulla [?]

Locana [?]

Mahasthamaprata [Chinese bodhisattva]
Maitreya [Future]
Manjughosa [Nepalese bodhisattva]
Manjusri [bodhisattva]
Mara [Evil]
Marici [Sun]
Mi-lo Fo (Pu-Sa) [Chinese bodhisattva
Miroku [Japanese bodhisattva
Mo-Li [Protects Temples]

Padmanartesvara [avatar Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara]
Pancaraksa[5 Goddesses]
Pandara [?]
Paramasva [?]
Parnasavari [?]
Prajna [Femaleness]
Prajnaparamita [Buddhist Text]
Ran-deng [Beggar and Future Buddha]
Ratnapani [Dhyani-Bodhisattva]
Ratnasambhava [Dhyani-Buddha]
Remanta [King of the Horse gods]

Sakyamuni [Japanese]
Samantabhadra [Bodhisattvas]
Saptaksara [avatar Heruka]
Shakra [King of the Gods]
Ssu Ta T'ien Wang [Kings of Heaven]
Sumbharaja [Buddhist Krodhadevata]

Tennin (Tennyo) [angels]

Usnisavijaya [?]

Vairocana [Dhyani-Buddhas]
Vaisravana (Pali Vessavana, Chinese Do Wen) [Guards World]
Vajrabhairava [?]
Vajrapani [Bodhisattvas]
Vajrasattva [Nepal Dhyani-Buddha]
Vajravarahi [?]
Vajrayogini [Initiation]
Vajrayogini [Riches]
Vidyadharas [?]
Vidyujjvalakarali [?]
Vighnantaka [?]
Virudhaka (Pali Virulha, Chinese Zheng Zhang) [Guards World]
Virupaksa (Pali Virupakkha, Chinese Guand Mu) [Guards Western Heaven]
Visvapani [Dhyani-Bodhisattva]

We-to [Divine General]

Yakushi Nyorai [Healing]
Yama [?]
Yamantaka [Krodhadevatas]

Zhu Dian (Zhu Tian) [Chinese Buddhist gods]

CHINESE GODS

Ao [Sea]
Awun [Destruction]

Ba [Drought]
Ba Gua [Basis of Divination]
Bo Hsian [Taoist]

Cai-Shen [Riches]
Can Cong [Silkworms]
Cao Guo-jiu [Actors]
Chang Fei [War]
Chang Hs'ien [Children]
Chang Kuo-lao [?]
Ch'ang E (Ch'ang-o Huang E) [Moon]
Chang Tao Ling [Afterlife]
Cheng-huang (Ch'eng Huang) [Guardians]
Chen Jen [Spiritual Beings]
Cheng San-Kung [Fishermen]
Cheng Yuan Ho (Ch'ang-o Huang E) [Buskers]
Chih Nu [Weavers]
Chih Sung-Tzu (Chi Sung Tzu) [Rain]
Chih-Yu [Inventor]
Ch'in-Shu-Pao [Guardian]
Chou Wang [Sodomy]
Chu-Chuan Shen [Pigsties]
Chu Jung [Fire]
Chu Lung [Day/Night]
Chung K'uei [Afterlife]
Chung-li Ch'uan [Immortal]
Confucius [Philosopher]

Di Zhang Xia [?]
Dong-yo Da-di [Helps Sky God]

Erh-Lang [Guardian]

Fan-K'uei [Butchers]
Fei Lien (Fei Lian) [Wind]
Feng-Huang (Hoang-female Phuong-male) [Many Meanings]
Feng Po (Feng-Po) [Human form of the wind]
Feng P'o-p'o (Feng-Po-Po) [Female wind]
Fo [Buddha]
Fu His [Taught Humanity]
Fu Hsing [Happiness]
Fu Shen [Happiness]
Fu-Shou-Lu [Collection of Gods]
Fu-xi [Hero]

Gao Yao (Ting-jian) [Judgement]
Gong Gong [Common Workers]
Gou Mang and Ru Shou [Messengers]
Guan Di (Kuan Ti) [War/Fortune Telling]
Gui Xian [Demon]

Han Hsiang [Immortal]
Han Xiang-zi [Immortal]
He Bo (Bing-yi) [Rivers]
Heng E (Change-e) [Moon]
He Xian-gu [Immortal]
Heng-Ha-Erh-Chiang [Temples]
Heng-o [Moon]
Ho Hsien-ku [Immortal]
Ho Po [River]
Hou Chi [Harvest]
Hou I [Archer]
Hou T'u [Earth]
Hsien [Taoists]
Hsi Ho [Sun's Creator]
Hsi Wang Mu [Guardian]
Hsuan-T'ien-Shang-Ti [Dark Heaven]
Hua Hsien [Flower]
Huang-di (Huang Ti) (Shun) [Hero]
Huang Fei-hu (Fei) [Mountain]
Hu-Shen [Hail]

I [Bowmen]
Infoniwoo [Generation]
I-Ti [Wine]

K'ai Lu Shen [Purges Evil]
Kuan Yu [War]
K'uei Hsing [Examinations]

Lan Cai-he [Immortal]
Lao T'ien Yeh [Supreme]
Lao-Tzu (Lao-zi) [Philosopher]
Lei Kung [Storm]
Lei-zi [Thunder]
Li [Fire]
Li Tie-guai [Immortal]
Liu [Crops]
Lu Dong-bin (Lu Yan) [Immortal]
Lu-Hsing [Salaries/Employees]
Lung Wang [Dragon King]
Lupan [Carpenters]

Ma-Mien [Bureaucrat]
Meng (Meng P'o) [Underworld]
Meng-T'ien [Writing Brush]
Men Shen [Doors, includes sometimes Wei Cheng]
Mu Gong [Immortals]

Niu-Y'oun [Police]
Nu Gua (Nu Kua, Nu Wa) [Creator and Marriage]

O-Mi-T'o Fo [Amitabha]

Pa [Drought]
Pa-Cha [Anti-locusts]
Pa-Hsien [Eight Immortals]
P'an-Chin-Lien [Prostitues]
'P'an Ku (Panku, Pangu) [Cosmos]
Pi-Hsia-Yuan-Chun [Childbirth]
Puhsien [Sun]

Ran-deng [Future Buddha]

San Ch'inga [Three Taos]
Shang Di (Shang Ti) [Supreme]
She Chi (Thu) [Earth]
Shen [Spirit]
Sheng Jen [Holy]
Shen-nong(Shen Nung) [Hero]
Shen-T'u [Guardian]
Shen Yi [Sun]
Shiang Ku [Magician]
Shih-Tien Yen-Wang [Committe of Ten]
Shou-Hsing [Longevity]
Shou Lao (Shou Xing Lao Tou-zi) [Long Life]
Shou-Ts'ang [Servant]
Shui-Fu [Water]
Shui-Kuan [Defender]
Ssu Ming [Life and Death]
Sung-Chiang [Theives]
Sun Hou-Tzu [Monkey]
Sun Hou-zi [Apes]
Sun-Pin [Cobblers]

T'ai I [High]
Tai-sui-xing [Time]
Tai-yi [Sky]
T'ai Yueh Ta Ti (Tung-Yueh-Ta-Ti, T'ai-Yo, Ta-Ti) [Peak]
Thu [Earth]
Tian [Sky]
Tian-zhu [Catholic]
Tien (T'ien) [Sky]
Tien-Hou (T'ien Fei) [Heaven]
T'ien-Kuan [Happiness]
T'ien Lung [Dragon]
Tien Mu [Lightening]
Tien-Wang (Mo-Li) [Kings]
Ti-Kuan [Foregiveness]
Ti Nu (Ti-ya) [Earth]
Ti-Tsang-Wang-Pu-Sa [Mercy]
Ti Yu [Afterlife]
Tou Nu [North Star]
Ts'ai-Lun [Stationers]
Ts'ai Shen [Wealth]
Tsan [Demons]
Ts'ang Chien [Hearth]
Tsao Shen [?]
Tsao-Wang [Hearth]
Tu [Earth]
Tung Wang Kung [Ruled Male Immortals]
T'u-ti (Ti-Ti) [Locality]

Wang [Palace Door]
Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang [Guardian]
Wen Ch'ang (Wen-Chang-Ta-Ti) [Literature]
Wen-Shu Yen-K'ung [Manjushri]
Wen Pu [Epidemics]
Wu Ti [Myth]

Xian [Spirits]
Xi-Wang-mu [Immortality]

Yama [Seventh hell]
Yan-lo (Yan Wang) [Underworld Prince]
Yao [Wind Conqueror]
Yao-shi-fo [Physician]
Yao Wang [Medicine]
Yeng-Wang-Yeh [Death]
Yen Wang (Yen Lo) [Underworld Judge]
Yin and Yang [Male and Female]
Yo Fei [War]
Yu-Chiang [Ocean Winds]
Yu-di (Yu Huang) [Supreme]
Yueh Fei [War]
Yu Huang (Yu-Huang-Shang-Ti) [High]
Yun T'ung [Clouds]
Yu-qiang [Sea]
Yu Shih [Rain]
Yu-tzu [Rain]

Zao Jun [Kitchen]
Zhang Guo-lao [Immortal]
Zhong-Kui [Literature and Examinations]
Zhong-li Quan [Immortal]

[Sources: Brief History of Ancient Chinese Mythology]

Finnish Gods:

Ahto [Water]
Akka [Harvest]

Egres [Vegetation/Fertility]

Hiisi [Forest/Evil]

Ilma [Air]
Ilmarinen [Sky]
Inmar [Sky]

Juma [Sky]
Jumala (Mader-Atcha, Ukk) [Thunder+]

Kalevanpojat [Demons]
Kalma [Death]
Kekri [Fertility Feast]
Kipu-Tytto [Illness]
Kondos [Sowing Crops]
Kuu [Moon]

Lemminkainen [Hero]
Louhi [Sorcery/Evil]
Loviatar [Disease]
Luonnotar [Creator]

Madderakka [Dwarves]
Maahiset [Dwarves]

Naaki [Water]
Nyrckes [?]

Olmai (Olmay) [Divine properties]

Pajainen [?]
Pajonn [Thunder]
Para [Goblin Like]
Pellonpekko [Barley]

Raudna [?]
Rutu [Devil]

Sampsa [Vegetation]
Seides [Stones]

Rauni [?]

Tapio [Forest]
Tiermes [Thunder]
Tuoni [Underworld
Tursas [Monster]

Ukko (Isainen) [Thunder]

Vainamoinen [Hero]
Veralden-radien [World Pillars]

Waralden Olmai [World]

JAPANESE GODS

Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone (Aji-Shiki-Taka-Hiko-Ne) [Thunder]
Ama-No-Minakanushi-No-Kumi [Pole Star]
Ame-No-Oshido-Mimi [Refusal]
Ama-No-Uzume [Fertility]
Ama-Tsu-Kami [Heavenly Gods]
Amatsu Mikaboshi [Evil]
Ame-No-Hohi [Disappeared]
Ame-No-Wakahiko [Ruled Earth]

Bimbo-Gami [Poverty]
Bishamon [War]

Chimata-No-Kami [Rain/Sea]

Daikoku [Wealth]

Ebisu [Labor]

Fuchi [Fire]
Fukurokuju (Fukuro kuju) [Wisdom]
Futsunushi [Lightening]

Gozu-Tenno [Plague]

Haya-Ji (Haya-Tsu-Muji-No-Kami) [Whirlwind]
Hikohohodemi [Hero]
Hinokagutsuchi [Fire]
Hiruko [Morning Sun]
Hoderi [?]
Hisa-Me [Devils]
Ho-Masubi (Kagu Zuchi) [Fire]
Hosuseri [?]
Hotei [Laughter]

Inari [Prosperity]
Izanagi [Creator]
Izanami [Mother]

Jikoku [Guardians]
Jimmu Tenno [Founder]
Jurojin (Jorojin) [Longevity]

Kagu-tsuchi [Fire]
Kamado-gami [Hearth]
Kami [Divinities]
Kami-Musubi (Kami-mi-masubi) [?]
Kami-Nari [Thunder]
Kamui [Sky]
Kappa [Water]
Kawa-No-Kami [Rivers]
Kishijoten [Luck]
Kishimojin [Demon]
Komoku [South]
Kompira [Wealth]
Kono-Hana-Sakuya-Hime (Kono-no-hana-saku-ya-hime) [?]
Kono-Hana-Sakuya-Hime Kuni-Toko-tachi [First]
Kuni-Tsu-Kami [Earth]
Kura-Okami [Rain/Snow]

Nai-No-Kami [Earthquakes]
Naka-Yama-Tsu-Mi [Mountain Slopes]
Ningyo [Mermaid]
Ninigi [Ruler Earth]

O-Kuni-Nushi (Okuninushi) [Medicine/Sorcery]
Onamuji [Earth]
Omiwa [Protective]
Oni [Demons]
O-Wata-Tsumi [Sea]
O-Yama-Tsu-Mi (O-yama-tsuni) [Mountain]

Raiden [Thunder]
Ryo-Wo [Sea]
Ryujin (Ryugin) [Thunder/Rain]

Sae-No-Kami [Roads]

Sengen-Sama [Guarded Holy Moutain]
Sennin [Immortals]
Shichi-Fukujin [Luck]
Shiko-Me [Devils]
Shine-Tsu-Hiko [Wind]
Shitatera-Hime [?]
Shi-tenno [Cardinal Direction Guardians]
Shojo [Satyrs]
Soko-No-Kuni [Underworld]
Suitengu [Sea]
Sukuna-bikone (Suku-na-biko) [Hot Springs]
Shoki [Enemy of Devils]
Susanowo (Susanoo, Susa-no-wo) [Storms]
Takamimusubi (Taka-mi-masubi) [Royal Family]
Takemikadzuchi [Thunder]
Take-Mi-Musubi [Sun]
Taki-Tsu-Hiko [Rain]
Tatsuta-hime [Autumn]
Ten-gu (Tengu) [Mountain/Forest]
Tenjin (Temmangu) [Learning/Calligraphy]
Tsuki-Yomi (Tsukiyomi) [Moon]

Uji-gami [Ancestors]
Uke-Mochi-No-Kami (Ukemochi, Waka-Uke-Nomi, Toyo-Uke-Bime) [Fertility and Food]

Uzume [Mirth]

Wakahiru-me [Rising Sun]\
Wata-tsu-mi [Sea]

Yabune [House]

Zocho [South]

Shinto Amaterasu [Sun]

Ama-Tsu-Mara [Smiths]

Ame-No-Kagase-Wo [Astral]
Ame-No-Mi-Kumari-No-Kami [Water]
Amenominakanushi (Ame-No-Minaka-Nushi-No-Kami) [Supreme]
Am-No-Tanabata-Hime-No-Mikoto [Weavers]
Ame-No-Toko-Tachi-No-Kami [Elemental]
Ame-no-uzume [Dancers]

Benten (Benten-San, Benzaiten, Benzaiten) [Eloquence+]

Fujin [Wind]

Hachiman [War]
Ho-musubi [Fire]

Kami [Idols]

SOUTH ASIAN GODS

Cao Dai(Chinese: Gao-Tai) [Supreme]

Debata [?]

Empung Luminuut [?]

Hainuwele [?]

Hananim [Sky]

Hmin [Ague]

Karei [Supreme]
Kinharingan [Creator]
Kud [Evil]

Laseo [Sun]
Lature Dano [Supreme]
Lowalangi(Lowalani) [World Above]

Mahatala (Mahataral) [Supreme?]
Ma-zu [?]

Nanmata (Namite) [Primeval]
Narbrooi [Woodlands]
Nemu [Primodial]

Palk [Sun]
Puang Matowa [Sky]
Pulug [Thunder]

Reahu [Dark Demon]
Rigenmucha [Supreme]

Silewe Nazarata [?]
Sirao [First]

Ta Pedn [?]
Tnong [Sun]
Tumbrenjak [Original Man]

Upulevo [Sun]

Wunekau [Sun]

CENRAL AND WEST ASIAN GODS

Abyrga [Snake]
Afi [Rain/Thunderstorms]
Aitvaras [Evil]
Alardi [Spirit]
Aralo [Agriculutre]
Armaz [Supreme]
Auseklis (Ausrine) [Stellar]

Baba [Spirit]
Baba Yaga (Jezi-Baba) [Ogress]
Bagvarti [?]
Bangputys [Sea]
Bannik [Baths]
Bagisht [Flood/Prosperity]
Barastir (Barastaer) [Underworld]
Bardha [Elves]
Beg-tse (Cam-srin) [War]
Beng [Satan]
Biegg-Olmai [Wind]
Bogatyri [Heroes]
Boldogasszony (Kisboldogasszony) [Protector Women/Children]
Bolla (Bullar) [Demon]
Buga [Supreme]
Bukura e dheut
[Good Spirit]
Bukuri e qiellit [Jehovah]
Byelobog (Bielbog) [?]
Byelun [?]

Chernobo(Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog) [?]
Chors [Sun]

Dabog [Sun]
Deive [Stone Spirits]
Dieva deli [?]
Dievini [Less Known Gods]
Dievs [Sky]
Djall [Devil]
Domovoi (Domovoy) [Household]
Donbittir [Water/Fish]
Drag-gshed [Eight Terrible Gods]
Dud [Heavenly Spirit]
Dvorovoi [Courtyard]
Dyavo [Demons]

En [?]
Erlik [King of the Dead]
Es [Sky]

Fatit [Destiny]
Fene [Demon]

Gabija (Gabieta, Gabeta) [Fire]
Gabjauja [Corn]
Giltine [Death]
Guta [Demon]

Hadur [War]
Himavat [Himalayas]
Horagalles [War]

Isdustaya and Papaya [Fate]
Isten [Supreme]

Jagaubis [Fire]
Jarovit (Gerovitus) [War]
Jessis [avatar Jupiter]
Jumis [Fertility]
Juras Mate [Water]

Kaka-Guia [Funerary]
Kalvis [Smith]
Karta [Fate]
Kaukas [?]
Khors [Health/Hunting]
Khyung-gai mGo-can [?]
Kikimora [Household]
K'op'ala [Protective]
Kukuth (Kukudhi) [Sickness]
Kulshedra (Kucedre) [Demon]
Kun-tu-bzan-po [Chief Bon]
Kupala [Water/Magic/Herbs]
Kurdalaegon [Blacksmiths]

Laima [Fate]
Lamaria [Hearth]
Laskowice (Leshcia) [Forest]
Lauka Mate [Fields/Fertility]
Laume [Fairy]
Leshy [Forest]
Lha [Bon Gods]
Lhamo [?]
Ljeschi (Lychie) [Fauns and Satyrs]
Ljubi [Demon]

Manzasiri [Primeval]
Mate [Mother]
Mati Syra Zemlya [Earth]
Medeine (Mejdejn) [Woods]
Meness [Moon]
Menulis [Moon]
Meza Mate [Nature]
Mirsa [Light]
Mokos [Fertility]
Mu (rMu) [Heavenly]
Muma Padura [Wood]
Myesyats (Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog) [Moon]

Nang Lha [Household]
Nari [Demon]
Nari [Sky]
Num [Sky]

Odqan [Fire]
Ora [Protective]
Ordog [Dark]

Pekar (Pehar) [Demon]
Peko [Barley]
Perendi [Jehovah]
Perit [Mountain Spirits]
Perkons [Thunder]
Perkunas [Thunder]
Perun (Peroun) [Thunder]
Polevik [Field]
Poludnitsa [Field]
Pon [Sky]
Porenutius (Porevit) [?]
Preas Eyn [?]
Preas Eyssaur [Destructive]
Preas Prohm [Primeval]

Prende (Prenne) [Love]
Psezpolnica (Polish Poludnica) [Midday]
Pugu [Sun]

Qormusta (Chormusta) [High]

Rugievit [War]
Rusalki (Rusalka) [Water/Woodlands]

Safa [Weapens]
Sanda [?]
Sarkany [Weather]
Saule [Sun]
Saules meitas [?]
Selardi [Moon]
Shen-Lha-od-dkar [Bon]
Shen-rab [Founder Bon]
Sipe Gyalmo [Bon]
Shiwini [Sun]
Shosshu [Smiths]
Siwini [Sun]
Srat [Demon]
Sri [Demon]
Sridevi [?]
Stribog [Winds]
Svantevit (Svantoveit, Svantovitus) [War/Agriculture]
Svarog [Sky]
Syen [Guardian]
Stihi [Demon]

Teljavelik [Heavenly Smith]
Telyaveli [Smiths]
Tengri [Heavenly Beings]
Tesheba [Weather]
Thab-lha [Hearth]
Triglav (Trigelawus) [War]

Uacilla [Thunder/Rain]
Ulgen [Creator]
Urme [Fate]
Usins [?]

Vadatajs [Evil]
Vampire [Soul of Dead]
Veela [Kindess]
Veja mate [Winds]
Veles (Volos) [Underworld]
Velnias [Devil]
Velu mate [Dead]
Verbti [Fire/North Wind]
Vila [Water]
Vilkacis (Lithuanian Vilkatas) [Werewolf]
Vlkodlaks (Vookodlaks) [Werewolf]
Vodnik [Demon]
Vodyanoi [Water]
Volos (Volusu) [Cattle]

We [Supreme]

Xhindi [Spirits]

Yarilo [Love]

Zaltys [Grass Snake]
Zemepatis (Zemempatis) [Supreme]
Zemes mate [Mother]
Zemyna (Zemyneles) [Earth]
Zorya [Guardian]
Zvezda Dennitsa and Zvezda Vechernyaya [Morning and Evening Star]

SIBERIAN GODS

Ai Tojon [Light]
Ajysyt [Mother]
Anky-Kele [Sea]
Ayi [Creator]

Hittavainen, Hittauanin [Hare-Hunters]
Hinkon [Death Demon]

K'daai [Fire Demon]
Kaltes [The Goddess]
Ke'lets [Death Demon]
Kurkil [Creator]
Kutkinnaku [Good Spirit]

Mayin [Supreme]

Picvu'cin [Hunting/Wild Animals]

Shurdi [Thunderstorms]

Tomam [Bird]
Tomor(Tomorr) [Father Creator]

Xucau [Supreme]

Ye'loje (Pugu) [Sun]

Stephen Poley

2004-06-20 06:36:13 UTC

Post by bob young
No god is going to save anyone. Who is going to be saved, just the followers
of your so called Christian god or all the followers, past and present, of
[Note under African Gods the number devoted to Supremacy]
Allah, Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, , El Shaddai, Elohim
Eshu, Ereshkigal,

<mega-snip>

Impressively large list. What is your source?

--
Stephen Poley

bob young

2004-06-20 13:07:09 UTC

Post by Stephen Poley

<mega-snip>
Impressively large list. What is your source?

A previous poster. I have a longer one if you want it, but it uses a lot of
bandwidth.

If nothing else these lists portray how we humans love to create 'powerful
belings' to get favours from. It is the price we pay for our extended brains,
humans have a deep underlying insecurity complex that the lucky animals know
nothing about!

Post by Stephen Poley
--
Stephen Poley

Stephen Poley

2004-06-20 14:35:44 UTC

Post by Stephen Poley

Post by bob young
No god is going to save anyone. Who is going to be saved, just the followers
of your so called Christian god or all the followers, past and present, of
Allah, Aphrodite, Ares, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Babaluaye, Bacchus,
Baldur, Bast, Bellona, Brahma, Brigid, Ceres, Cupid, Cerridwen,
Demeter, Diana, Dione, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Eleggua, , El Shaddai, Elohim
Eshu, Ereshkigal,

<mega-snip>
Impressively large list. What is your source?

A previous poster. I have a longer one if you want it, but it uses a lot of
bandwidth.

OK, I've done a bit of Googling; it would appear it originally came from
http://www.mythome.org/

--
Stephen Poley

Reslight

2004-06-22 17:00:52 UTC

Post by bob young
No god is going to save anyone. Who is going to be saved, just the followers
of your so called Christian god or all the followers, past and present, of

Luke 2:10 - The angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for behold, I bring
you good news of great joy which will be to all the people.

1 John 2:2 - And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours
only, but also for the whole world.

John 12:47 - For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1 John 4:14 - We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as
the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22 - as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made
alive.

John 5:28,29 - Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that
are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who have
done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the
resurrection of judgment.

Romans 5:18 - as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so
through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Acts 24:15 - there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and
unjust.

http://reslight.addr.com/restorationofall.html
http://reslight.addr.com/life.html

Christian love,
Ronald

bob young

2004-06-23 06:43:34 UTC

Post by bob young
No god is going to save anyone. Who is going to be saved, just the

followers

Post by bob young
of your so called Christian god or all the followers, past and present, of

Luke 2:10 - The angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for behold, I bring
you good news of great joy which will be to all the people.
1 John 2:2 - And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours
only, but also for the whole world.
John 12:47 - For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
1 John 4:14 - We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as
the Savior of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made
alive.
John 5:28,29 - Don't marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that
are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who have
done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the
resurrection of judgment.
Romans 5:18 - as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so
through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
Acts 24:15 - there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and
unjust.

After eight quotes from the writings of primitives you feel that you have made
a point?

well you have - the point is you seem to be slavishly trying to prove you are a
blinkered idiot!

This stuff was written two thousand years ago for the simple banal people of
that time, these quotes are utterly meaningless and prove nothing

Post by bob young
http://reslight.addr.com/restorationofall.html
http://reslight.addr.com/life.html
Christian love,
Ronald

Reslight

2004-06-30 03:07:33 UTC

Post by bob young
After eight quotes from the writings of primitives you feel that you have made
a point?
well you have - the point is you seem to be slavishly trying to prove you are a
blinkered idiot!
This stuff was written two thousand years ago for the simple banal people of
that time, these quotes are utterly meaningless and prove nothing

May God bless.

Christian love,
Ronald

Pastor Frank

2004-07-01 15:36:25 UTC

Post by bob young
After eight quotes from the writings of primitives you feel that you

have

Post by bob young
made a point?
well you have - the point is you seem to be slavishly trying to prove

you

Post by bob young
are a blinkered idiot!
This stuff was written two thousand years ago for the simple banal

people

Post by bob young
of that time, these quotes are utterly meaningless and prove nothing

May God bless.
Christian love,
Ronald

Bob Young, why don't you post your atheist clap-trap to atheist news
groups? You are totally clueless about what is going on here in our pristine
Christian, spiritual and philosophical NGs. You only succeed in making a
fool of yourself claiming that 20% of the word's population who are
Christian, believe something "utterly meaningless, that "proves nothing",
and that only "simple banal people", "blinkered idiots" or "primitives" etc.
etc. etc. " believe these ancient myths.
The simple fact is, that you are perceptually and philosophical
challenged, unable to understand the language, symbolism and metaphor of
ancient mid-Eastern philosophical discourse. So, either learn, like we all
had to, or move on already. Sheeeesh!!!!!!
--
Pastor Frank

THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives,
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge
him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
**Jesus in Lk:15:7: I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven
over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons,
which need no repentance.

bluskie

2004-07-02 23:40:17 UTC

Post by bob young
After eight quotes from the writings of primitives you feel that you

have

Post by bob young
made a point?
well you have - the point is you seem to be slavishly trying to prove

you

Post by bob young
are a blinkered idiot!
This stuff was written two thousand years ago for the simple banal

people

Post by bob young
of that time, these quotes are utterly meaningless and prove nothing

May God bless.
Christian love,
Ronald

The simple fact is, that you are perceptually and philosophical
challenged, unable to understand the language, symbolism and metaphor of
ancient mid-Eastern philosophical discourse. > --
Pastor Frank

somethings never change pastor frank, people are as predictaabkle as
shit, praise the lORD JeSUS! hallelujah!

"I don't think the film is about the Mafia at all," Mr. Brando told
Newsweek. "I think it is about the corporate mind. In a way, the Mafia
is the best example of capitalists we have."

Post by AWS
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: LIE, STEAL, MURDER, ad neauseam...

penno

2004-07-04 13:27:34 UTC

Post by bob young
After eight quotes from the writings of primitives you feel that you

have

Post by bob young
made a point?
well you have - the point is you seem to be slavishly trying to prove

you

Post by bob young
are a blinkered idiot!
This stuff was written two thousand years ago for the simple banal

people

Post by bob young
of that time, these quotes are utterly meaningless and prove nothing

May God bless.
Christian love,
Ronald

But Bob does have a point. It appears likely that the earliest versions
of the gospels weren't actually written down until 30-50 years after
Jesus' death. So until that time they were passed along verbally. Given
this, I don't think anyone can authoritatively claim that anything in
the gospels is 100% accurate. I mean you can quote something from the
bible, but how many times has that been changed from what was *really*
said. The answer is simply - we don't know. Comments on this?

Pastor Frank

2004-07-05 02:37:56 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Bob Young, why don't you post your atheist clap-trap to atheist news
groups? You are totally clueless about what is going on here in our pristine
Christian, spiritual and philosophical NGs. You only succeed in making a
fool of yourself claiming that 20% of the word's population who are
Christian, believe something "utterly meaningless, that "proves nothing",
and that only "simple banal people", "blinkered idiots" or "primitives" etc.
etc. etc. " believe these ancient myths.
The simple fact is, that you are perceptually and philosophical
challenged, unable to understand the language, symbolism and metaphor of
ancient mid-Eastern philosophical discourse. So, either learn, like we all
had to, or move on already. Sheeeesh!!!!!!

We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all about.
All you need to know are His most important commandments and they are
logical enough to understand, not only that but they were around before
Christ and He only puts His stamp of approval on them, and authority behind
them. See below

Pastor Frank

THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."

THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."

penno

2004-07-05 11:43:26 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Bob Young, why don't you post your atheist clap-trap to atheist

news

Post by Pastor Frank
groups? You are totally clueless about what is going on here in our

pristine

Post by Pastor Frank
Christian, spiritual and philosophical NGs. You only succeed in making a
fool of yourself claiming that 20% of the word's population who are
Christian, believe something "utterly meaningless, that "proves

nothing",

Post by Pastor Frank
and that only "simple banal people", "blinkered idiots" or "primitives"

etc.

Post by Pastor Frank
etc. etc. " believe these ancient myths.
The simple fact is, that you are perceptually and philosophical
challenged, unable to understand the language, symbolism and metaphor of
ancient mid-Eastern philosophical discourse. So, either learn, like we

all

Post by Pastor Frank
had to, or move on already. Sheeeesh!!!!!!

I agree that it's irrelevant when things are written down. What's
important - is have they captured what Jesus really said? We don't know.
Given that it's 30-50 years after his death, I think we can confidently
say that there would be at least *some* errors there. Have they captured
the essence of what Jesus said? We don't know that either. I mean how
much was Jesus, and how much was it the early founders of Christianity
pushing their own barrow? We don't know. How many of those "important
commandments" were Jesus' and how many belonged to other people
*claiming* that Jesus said them?

Post by Pastor Frank
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."

Pastor Frank

2004-07-05 15:02:42 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all about.
All you need to know are His most important commandments and they are
logical enough to understand, not only that but they were around before
Christ and He only puts His stamp of approval on them, and authority behind
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke had
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in the
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of His
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority which
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of some
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the cohesiveness
of His superb philosophy of life.

Pastor Frank

THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives,
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge
him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
**Jesus in Lk:15:7: I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven
over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons,
which need no repentance.

penno

2004-07-06 11:17:01 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

Post by Pastor Frank
All you need to know are His most important commandments and they are
logical enough to understand, not only that but they were around before
Christ and He only puts His stamp of approval on them, and authority

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

I agree that Jesus said many things which went against conventional
wisdom. I think that gives a big clue to help us seperate what he really
said, against that which was attributed to him, but he never actually
said. From your quotes below I would *guess* that Jesus said only "They
that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick". I
don't believe he ever claimed to be Son of God. I think that was added
much later.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of His
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority which
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Speaking of the crucifixion... I don't believe that Jesus was crucified
to save us from our sins. I could never get a handle on that. It doesn't
give us a good picture of God. A god that requires a blood offering and
human sacrifice before he can forgive his own creations seems like a
very strange god to me. That whole process just doesn't make any sense
to me.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of some
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the cohesiveness
of His superb philosophy of life.

If he wasn't reported accurately, then we need to ask "How much of this
is Jesus?" Some? Most? None? We don't know and I don't think we'll ever
know. If we don't know then why are we making an idol of him, and of the
bible?

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives,
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge
him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
**Jesus in Lk:15:7: I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven
over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons,
which need no repentance.

Pastor Frank

2004-07-08 20:36:48 UTC

It does make sense when you accept, that our Christian "God is love" (1
John 4:8,16), for love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond
all doubt, as per: Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: "This is my commandment: That ye
love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this,
that a man lay down his life for his friends."
So, the measure of love is between dying for those you love, i.e.
getting your children out of harm's way, or for your country as a soldier
etc. etc. and not willing to die for anyone or for any reason ever.
Christ dying for us is the proof of His love, without which surely no
one would have noticed Him to the extent people have.

"We need to ask"? If you need to ask that, you don't know Jesus. Keep
reading His words, till the Holy Spirit explains them to you and you too
WILL know Jesus. For "whoever seeks Him will find Him". See below

Pastor Frank

Jesus in Mt:7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh
receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be
opened.

John Ings

2004-07-09 00:07:38 UTC

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:36:48 -0400, "Pastor Frank"

Post by Pastor Frank
Jn:15:12-13: "This is my commandment: That ye
love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this,
that a man lay down his life for his friends."
So, the measure of love is between dying for those you love, i.e.
getting your children out of harm's way, or for your country as a soldier

But those who do so STAY dead! According to your myth, this deity of
yours got his life right back. Some sacrifice that was!

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ dying for us

In what respect was his death, even the temporary one, "for" us?
The man getting his children out of harm's way obviously acted for
them by removing them from say, the path of a runaway truck. The
soldier who dies for his country was trying to win a war for them.
But how could dying at Roman hands two milennia ago be for my benefit?

Your proposition is nothing but metaphysical mumbo-jumbo,
a retreaded version of the old Hebrew scapegoat idea.

## METAPHYSICS: proving the incredible
## by appealing to the unintelligible

Gwar

2004-07-09 06:16:39 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

Pastor Frank

2004-07-09 11:46:50 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

We all know Gwar you would never "sacrifice" anything for anyone. I bet
you have your children being taken care of by the state. But then you don't
love, and don't even know what that word means. All you ever post about is
what your hate.

Pastor Frank

LOVE
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
Jesus in John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command...
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.
He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show
myself to him."
23 "...If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love
him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you
hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it
does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it
keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails.
1 John 4:7-13 (KJV) "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of
God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that
loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the
love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into
the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we
loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for
our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth
in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in
him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit."

Gwar

2004-07-10 00:49:22 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

We all know Gwar you would never "sacrifice" anything for anyone.

You're crazy if you think love requires somebody to get hurt. You don't
need religion. You need a shrink.

Pastor Frank

2004-07-15 20:38:01 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

We all know Gwar you would never "sacrifice" anything for anyone.

You're crazy if you think love requires somebody to get hurt. You don't
need religion. You need a shrink.

Come down already from your high Gwar, you are halucinating again. No
one is talking about necessarily "getting hurt". Just about all normal
people sacrifice their lives for their kids and enjoy doing so. They work
like slaves and scrimp and save to send their kids to good schools etc. etc.
where they could spend all their money just on themselves.
Sorry to hear you wouldn't do any of that, because you are afraid you
might "get hurt". But then you must admit, you always have been a bit of a
selfish whimp, haven't you? Jesus is there to help you become empathic and
humane, DO avail yourself of Him while you still can.

Pastor Frank

SATAN'S MINIONS
Jesus in John 8:44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of
your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode
not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Mt:6:21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Mt:12:34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good
things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mt:12:35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth
forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth
evil things.
2Pt:3:3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts.

Gwar

2004-07-16 04:57:25 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

We all know Gwar you would never "sacrifice" anything for anyone.

You're crazy if you think love requires somebody to get hurt. You don't
need religion. You need a shrink.

Come down already from your high Gwar, you are halucinating again.

You said: "love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all
doubt. IOW, you want to hurt yourself or someone else to prove love. Then
you go into denial, & claim other people are hallucinating the words that
come out of your own mouth. Such behavior suggests that it is you who is
intoxicated.

b***@yahoo.com

2004-07-16 19:17:58 UTC

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

-- John 15:13

Pastor Frank

2004-07-18 01:09:18 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

We all know Gwar you would never "sacrifice" anything for anyone.

You're crazy if you think love requires somebody to get hurt. You don't
need religion. You need a shrink.

Come down already from your high Gwar, you are halucinating again.

Most normal people sacrifice their lives in favour of their children, if
not also in war for love of country. They wear themselves out for their
beloved children, and given a choice, they wouldn't do anything less for
them.
You already have voiced the opinion, that you wouldn't "sacrifice"
anything for anyone, but only look out for number one, -yourself. So what
else is new?

Pastor Frank

Jn:8:36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free
indeed.

Gwar

2004-07-18 04:26:21 UTC

... love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond all doubt

That's a function of your incipient sadomasochism.

We all know Gwar you would never "sacrifice" anything for anyone.

You're crazy if you think love requires somebody to get hurt. You don't
need religion. You need a shrink.

Come down already from your high Gwar, you are halucinating again.

You said: "love does require a 'human sacrifice' to prove love beyond
all doubt. IOW, you want to hurt yourself or someone else to prove
love. Then you go into denial, & claim other people are hallucinating
the words that come out of your own mouth. Such behavior suggests that
it is you who is intoxicated.

Most normal people sacrifice their lives in favour of their children,

No they don't. They give their time & effort to raise their children, They
don't turn themselves into "human sacrifices", or live vicarously through
their children. That's a sign of abnormality if they do.

Post by Pastor Frank
if not also in war for love of country.

Love of country doens't justify unjust wars. Love doesn't justify
injustice, or abuse.

`G' `O' `D' `S' __`C' `R' `E' `A' `T' `O' `R'

2004-07-09 10:06:52 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

.......
.....

Thus Spake God's Creator; (I don't forgive shit!)

Every body has to die someday, so no biggie !

*YOUR* God proved (it's) love for _you_ by never living...

Stop talking to yourself and try listening to the *Wise*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GOD'S CREATOR ( My only sin... )

Wise men study the unknown, and boldly seeks answers !
Others... fall on their hands and knees, and start mumbling...

Saul_Sabia

2004-07-09 10:34:14 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
It does make sense when you accept, that our Christian "God is love" (1
John 4:8,16), for love does require a "human sacrifice" to prove love beyond
all doubt, as per: Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: "This is my commandment: That ye
love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this,
that a man lay down his life for his friends."

which is the greater sacrifice - to take a bullet for your loved one, or
to live day in and day out for the rest of your life working a shit-paying,
no-respect job, having given up all your youthful dreams and hopes and
aspirations, with no hope of ever making your life any better, and your
only compensation is knowing that the little you can do is all that keeps
your family from starving to death?

think about it.

a few hours of suffering versus a lifetime. i know which one i'd pick,
because i'm a weakling. i'd much rather take the bullet and the glory.

Post by Pastor Frank
"We need to ask"? If you need to ask that, you don't know Jesus. Keep
reading His words, till the Holy Spirit explains them to you and you too
WILL know Jesus. For "whoever seeks Him will find Him". See below

well, that's the thing. as a man of scientific reasoning, i know that
the only way to draw a reasonable true conclusion is to have accurate
data. if jesus' words have been altered over the years, how much of it
is his and how much of it is the result of politics, mistranslation, etc.?

Saul Sabia
***@yaho[o].com

Pastor Frank

2004-07-09 17:57:52 UTC

which is the greater sacrifice - to take a bullet for your loved one, or
to live day in and day out for the rest of your life working a

shit-paying,

Post by Saul_Sabia
no-respect job, having given up all your youthful dreams and hopes and
aspirations, with no hope of ever making your life any better, and your
only compensation is knowing that the little you can do is all that keeps
your family from starving to death?
think about it.

This is not a valid comparison. How can you talk logic to a parent who
watches his / her house burn down, knowing their little child is hiding in a
bedroom closet and may be still alive? Or your country is invaded by a
ruthless enemy who might be stopped if EVERYBODY helps? Or you see a child
drowning and you might be able to save it by taking a chance with your own
life?

Post by Saul_Sabia
a few hours of suffering versus a lifetime. i know which one i'd pick,
because i'm a weakling. i'd much rather take the bullet and the glory.

Would only that all choices be that simple and that logical.

well, that's the thing. as a man of scientific reasoning, i know that
the only way to draw a reasonable true conclusion is to have accurate
data.

Religion is not "science". Religion is about believing in something or
someone, without any proof, that your belief might not be disappointed. Are
you married, have children etc? If you don't believe and have faith in them,
your marriage and children are in serious trouble, and that's NOT
science!!!!!!
if jesus' words have been altered over the years, how much of it

Post by Saul_Sabia
is his and how much of it is the result of politics, mistranslation, etc.?

There is a simple remedy for that. Whatever makes no sense to you, don't
believe, nor bother to dis-believe, but just put it on the shelf so to speak
and wait till the Holy Spirit reveals an answer that makes sense to you. All
you need to do is have faith, that this will happen, and most of all, have
faith that existence means you well, and is not out to get you. See below

Pastor Frank

Jesus in Mt:7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh
receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be
opened.

Saul_Sabia

2004-07-10 07:51:03 UTC

Post by Saul_Sabia
which is the greater sacrifice - to take a bullet for your loved one, or
to live day in and day out for the rest of your life working a

shit-paying,

i was attempting to make a comparison -- is it easier to sacrifice your
life to save someone, or is it easier to live your life in hell to save
someone.

of course i would put my life on the line for someone else. but would i
give up my hopes and dreams, any chance of happiness, and live in misery
the rest of my life?

that i'm not so sure about. how strong are one's convictions?

Post by Saul_Sabia
well, that's the thing. as a man of scientific reasoning, i know that
the only way to draw a reasonable true conclusion is to have accurate
data.

the point was to illustrate that if you don't have jesus' words accurately
rendered to you, how can you draw a valid conclusion from them?

if what jesus said was that 'thou shalt love each other' and it was
given to you as 'thou shalt love yourself' wouldn't that be a mistranslation,
and wouldn't that bias your conclusions?

faith is tangential to this discussion. what is more important is how
you derive what you belive in. if people aren't born knowing right from
wrong, then having a source of moral authority is important. if that source
is altered or suspect, then your basis for morality is weak.

in other words, if you belive it, but jesus didn't say, wouldn't that
make you wrong?

Post by Saul_Sabia
if jesus' words have been altered over the years, how much of it

Post by Saul_Sabia
is his and how much of it is the result of politics, mistranslation, etc.?

what if the holy spirit is a fallacy originating in the hundreds of years
after the death of jesus, like the doctrine of the trinity, or the concept
of penance, or even of the modern hell?

it's almost like you are saying 'youll figure it out, just believe in
the meantime.' well, i don't suspend my doubt for anyone, and i never
stop asking questions.

(btw, that's almost exactly what my parents used to tell me -- that the
mormon religion was the only correct religion, that all i would have to do
is believe in it and trust in god, and i would know it was the only right
way. as a christian presumably not of the mormon faith, i bet you disagree
with that statement, right? look at it from my viewpoint.)

Saul Sabia
***@yaho[o].com

Pastor Frank

2004-07-10 16:01:50 UTC

Post by Saul_Sabia
of course i would put my life on the line for someone else. but would i
give up my hopes and dreams, any chance of happiness, and live in misery
the rest of my life?
that i'm not so sure about. how strong are one's convictions?

If you run into your burning house to save your child, you have no
guarantee you will not sustain serious injuries and be scarred and ugly for
life. However would that thought prevent a parent from going in anyway?
Most, including soldiers will disregard the dangers and do what needs to
be done. Why? Because few want to be whole and healthy, looking at a selfish
cad in the bathroom mirror for the rest of their lives, who did nothing to
help save those he could.

Post by Saul_Sabia
well, that's the thing. as a man of scientific reasoning, i know that
the only way to draw a reasonable true conclusion is to have accurate
data.

mistranslation,

Post by Saul_Sabia
and wouldn't that bias your conclusions?
faith is tangential to this discussion. what is more important is how
you derive what you belive in. if people aren't born knowing right from
wrong, then having a source of moral authority is important. if that source
is altered or suspect, then your basis for morality is weak.
in other words, if you belive it, but jesus didn't say, wouldn't that
make you wrong?

We are all born with empathy, but it's the role of religion, especially
Jesus, to motivate people to develop, increase and perfect their empathy,
and make that ideal a permanent feature of their lives, rather than shelve
it whenever it's more profitable not to be empathic. Anything mitigating
against empathy is therefore NOT Jesus, for as you get to know Jesus, you
will know, how He meant to be understood and what is not like Him.

Post by Pastor Frank
if jesus' words have been altered over the years, how much of it

Post by Saul_Sabia
is his and how much of it is the result of politics, mistranslation, etc.?

what if the holy spirit is a fallacy originating in the hundreds of years
after the death of jesus, like the doctrine of the trinity, or the concept
of penance, or even of the modern hell?

That all depends on how you understand the term holy Spirit. Knowing
that "holy" means whole, wholesome, healthy, and that the least
objectionable synonym for "spirit" is attitude, should obviate your
"doubts".

Post by Saul_Sabia
it's almost like you are saying 'youll figure it out, just believe in
the meantime.' well, i don't suspend my doubt for anyone, and i never
stop asking questions.
(btw, that's almost exactly what my parents used to tell me -- that the
mormon religion was the only correct religion, that all i would have to do
is believe in it and trust in god, and i would know it was the only right
way. as a christian presumably not of the mormon faith, i bet you disagree
with that statement, right? look at it from my viewpoint.)

There is nothing wrong with being sceptical, but you need to approach
the problem from both directions. 1. is the concept illogical, or 2. is your
definition of the problem fallacious. It takes a great deal of thinking to
test different definitions first to see whether a concept stands up to
attack.
Most people just know one definition and don't care to know nor test
more, i.e. "God means an invisible hairy old man in the sky". They reject
the existence of such a being, calling themselves atheists in order to
belong to a group and figure they have arrived and don't need to look for
more. Their "god" is a straw-man and yes, they have arrived alright ..in
hell , as their consistent cynicism, negativity, trashing and flaming
proves.

Pastor Frank

SEEKING
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Jesus in Mk:9:23: Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things
are possible to him that believeth.
Jesus in Mt:7:7-8: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh
receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall
be opened.

Saul_Sabia

2004-07-11 08:11:57 UTC

you're missing the point. what about the person who gives up his hopes and
dreams and possibilities for happiness to save another? a battered mother
who stays with her husband because she has no other means of support and
the state won't help her, for instance (real-life example, this is not
hypothetical... it's very messed up and very tragic), so she does it for
the kids.

Post by Saul_Sabia
well, that's the thing. as a man of scientific reasoning, i know that
the only way to draw a reasonable true conclusion is to have accurate
data.

Religion is not "science". Religion is about believing in
something or someone, without any proof, that your belief might
not be disappointed. Are you married, have children etc? If you
don't believe and have faith in them,
your marriage and children are in serious trouble, and that's NOT
science!!!!!!

mistranslation,

source

Post by Saul_Sabia
is altered or suspect, then your basis for morality is weak.
in other words, if you belive it, but jesus didn't say, wouldn't that
make you wrong?

if you accept that people are born with an innate knowledge of right and
wrong, why do we need jesus? if i _know_ what is right and what is wrong,
and am born with the capacity to empathize with others, why should i need
a set of overly restrictive rules, an oppressive patriarchal social order,
and a god that threatens me with the great "or else"?

for that matter, why is jesus necessary? buddha said most of the same things
hundreds of years before jesus. confucius had the civil teachings, also
pre-dating and far outdetailing jesus (i guess he had the 'kiss' philosophy
... and now that i think about it, that's a beautiful double-meaning there,
judas for those who missed it).

AND i do not see religion as a tool to increase our empathy. not at all.
look at the squabbling that happens just in this ng over who is right and
who is wrong. i don't see much "seeing the other persons' side of things"
going on around here, at least some of the time (yeah i can be guilty of
that, too). and not to mention the squabbling and literal blood-shedding
that happens in the world. christians killing christians killing muslims
killing jews killing shiites killing everyone. and we all believe in one
god? one purpose? one love? empathy? yeah, right.

i'm reminded of a quote that i once read... something about how the purpose
of any stated dogma, creed, or belief is not to draw a circle that includes,
but to draw a circle that _excludes_ others.

Post by Pastor Frank
if jesus' words have been altered over the years, how much of it

Post by Saul_Sabia
is his and how much of it is the result of politics, mistranslation,

etc.?

Post by Pastor Frank
There is a simple remedy for that. Whatever makes no sense to you,
don't believe, nor bother to dis-believe, but just put it on the
shelf so to speak and wait till the Holy Spirit reveals an answer
that makes sense to you.
All you need to do is have faith, that this will happen, and most
of all, have faith that existence means you well, and is not out to
get you. See below

what if the holy spirit is a fallacy originating in the hundreds of years
after the death of jesus, like the doctrine of the trinity, or the concept
of penance, or even of the modern hell?

NO.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=holy
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=holy

Where do you see a "whole, wholeome, healthy"?

Holy means something special. something virtous, solemn, something worthy
of veneration or worship (ie, putting on a pedestal or praying to).

you side-stepped the question. restated: what if the doctrine of a holy
spirit that gives you spiritual promptings is a fallacy, made up in the
hundreds of years between jesus dying and the canonization of the Bible?
(note: 300-some year gap) we _know_ that the concept of penance, for
instance, was invented/assimilated over 300 years after jesus died.
the concept of a virgin birth wasn't in the first gospel written (mark i
believe), but it was in later gospels, written dozens of years later.

well, let's take your words literally. if "holy spirit" = "healthy attitude"
then why do nice, normal, healthy christians continually give money to
someone as morally bankrupt as Benny Hinn, or other tv evangelists?
shouldn't they be prompted by the holy spirit to discern when someone
is pulling their chain?

trust me. i know. i'm not an agnostic for nothin'. i like to think.
gives me something to do while everyone else is baa-baaing around.

Post by Pastor Frank
Most people just know one definition and don't care to know nor test
more, i.e. "God means an invisible hairy old man in the sky". They reject
the existence of such a being, calling themselves atheists in order to
belong to a group and figure they have arrived and don't need to look for
more. Their "god" is a straw-man and yes, they have arrived alright ..in
hell , as their consistent cynicism, negativity, trashing and flaming
proves.

well, that doesn't apply to me, for instance. i've run, and am stll running,
quite the gamut of belief systems. everything from charistmatic christian
to kesmeticism (the authentic belief of ancient egyptians) to paganism and
eclectic neopaganism (various modern interpretations of ancient beliefs) to
mormonism to ... well, damn near everything.

no, i approach my agnosticism from the realization that most people who
believe in god are IDIOTS. they don't think about what they believe, they
just do because someone told them and it was good enough. the ones that do
believe and spend time thinking about it are mostly morons who can't define
why they believe something without retreating into arguments like "well,
i've seen things that i can't explain and so i believe in god", or "well,
you're going to hell if you don't believe in JESUS", or "nothing you say
can dissuade my faith in god because i just know it's right" or "well, the
Bible is _obviously_ true. duh! so you should go to [insert denomination
here] church and accept jesus as your personal savior!"

and yes, i'm quoting literally from diff people i know.

not to say i haven't met intelligent christians. most of them here in this
newsgroup.

Saul

Robert Gau

2004-08-25 05:47:31 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

Pastor Frank

2004-08-25 21:17:57 UTC

Post by Robert Gau
The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly
knew it was b.s.

Are you a literalist and perceptually and/or philosophically challenged?
Perhaps you have the same objections to people using expressions like "son
of a gun"? That would certainly be b.s., for though it might surprise you,
most of us know, that guns don't have sons, nor do we find that "hard to
understand", nor do we even bother to confess to that fact "secretly".

Pastor Frank

"GOD" The Christian meaning of the word according to scripture:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus in John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and
the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Robert Gau

2004-08-30 08:10:50 UTC

Post by Robert Gau
The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why

people

Post by Robert Gau
would put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly
knew it was b.s.

Actually, I was on your side here.
One of the reasons I believe Jesus might be the son of God is
because I don't believe people would have died for thier own lie.

Post by AWS
Jesus in Jn:4:24: GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus in John 14:6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and
the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

penno

2004-09-07 13:33:31 UTC

In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, ***@ev1.net
says...

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

That's a really good question. I don't know why they would do that
either. To be honest, I'm not well-versed in who died for what. I don't
really care. Maybe his followers, after his death, became so convinced
that God was in Jesus and Jesus was in God, that they had to conclude
that Jesus was the son of God. To them it was the truth.

Who knows - maybe he *did* claim to be Son of God. We'll never know. But
I don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, was
resurrected, etc, etc. Hard evidence of this is non-existant. Even
reasonable evidence I find to be severely lacking. And given this lack
of evidence for the miraculous things, I find it reasonable to doubt he
ever claimed to be Son of God.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of

some

Post by Pastor Frank
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the

cohesiveness

Post by Pastor Frank
of His superb philosophy of life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal

the

Post by Pastor Frank
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that

are

Post by Pastor Frank
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not

Post by Pastor Frank
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's

lives,

Post by Pastor Frank
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was

lost.

Post by Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I

judge

Post by Pastor Frank
him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
**Jesus in Lk:15:7: I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven
over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just

persons,

Post by Pastor Frank
which need no repentance.

Pastor Frank

2004-09-08 12:38:17 UTC

Post by penno
says...

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

That's a really good question. I don't know why they would do that
either.

Well, Christ gives you a choice to be either a "Son of God" or a son of
a gun. It's YOUR choice entirely and we ALL make that choice on purpose or
by default. One leads to heaven, the other to hell, and all your pedantic
obfuscations and picayune doubts are irrelevant and won't change a thing.

Pastor Frank

SONS OF GOD
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.

Saul_Sabia

2004-09-09 04:35:47 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Well, Christ gives you a choice to be either a "Son of God" or a son of
a gun. It's YOUR choice entirely and we ALL make that choice on purpose or
by default. One leads to heaven, the other to hell, and all your pedantic
obfuscations and picayune doubts are irrelevant and won't change a thing.

on purpose or by default? making a choice by default is an oxymoron.

Saul
"i don't negotiate with terrorists"
-- slogan of the day, and perfectly applicable
considering the above post

Pastor Frank

2004-09-09 11:10:06 UTC

on purpose or by default? making a choice by default is an oxymoron.

Deciding not to make a choice IS a choice. "oxymoron" indeed!!!

Pastor Frank

THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."

THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."

The Steel Wolf

2004-09-09 23:23:45 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Well, Christ gives you a choice to be either a "Son of God" or a son
of a gun. It's YOUR choice entirely and we ALL make that choice on
purpose or by default. One leads to heaven, the other to hell, and
all your pedantic obfuscations and picayune doubts are irrelevant
and won't change a thing.

on purpose or by default? making a choice by default is an oxymoron.

Deciding not to make a choice IS a choice. "oxymoron" indeed!!!

Can a choice made without the necessary information truly be said to
be a free choice? In other words, orthodox Christians claim that
those who choose not to accept the truth of Christianity and the
divine saviourhood of Jesus have willfully excluded themselves from
Paradise. Yet it seems difficult to hold a person accountable for
making this choice unless there is some objective evidence present
that the non-Christian simply chooses to overlook: otherwise a person
may be unfortunately ignorant, but however much so this may be he
certainly cannot reasonably be said to be *blameworthy*.

In order for an epistemic duty to be genuine, it must actually be
performable. Those who are Christians have the experience of their
encounter with God to inform that decision (if indeed it is a
conscious decision). Those who are agnostics/atheists, however, have
had no such experience to similarly inform them. Further, there seems
little reliable means of obtaining such experience: the spirit
bloweth where it listeth. To make things even more complex, the mere
fact of having some sort of experience does not seem necessarily to
imply Christianity as the sole possible initiator of the same: after
all, there are plenty of other people who profess other religions and
who have had equally profound encounters with deity.

To be blunt, it seems that upon any sort of rigorous analysis the
philosophical foundation of a literalist interpretation of
belief-contingent salvation falls utterly to pieces. It simply
doesn't make any sense. Which of course is not a problem to
Christians: the ground of religious belief is after all essentially
non-rational in its character, and it would be absurd to expect any
given religion to hold only those doctrines which are logically
defensible. But when you have a situation like this, in which those
who have some sort of non-rational experiential grounding for such a
belief are attempting to sway those who have not had the benefit of
such experience, the only tools that can be used in order to have any
sort of genuine dialogue are rhetorical ones: the tools of reason.

So long as any attempt is made by appeal to a category of experience
which lies outside of the conversational participants' common ground,
no significant communication is taking place. It seems that this is
the situation in which you find yourself here: a significant portion
of the basis for your arguments rests upon experience which lies
outside that common ground, and so you end up essentially doing little
more than talking past people rather than engaging them in genuine
dialogue.

penno

2004-09-11 03:04:40 UTC

Post by stone

Post by penno
says...

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here.

WHEN

Post by Pastor Frank
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is

all

Post by Pastor Frank
about.

Post by Pastor Frank
All you need to know are His most important commandments and they

are

Post by Pastor Frank
logical enough to understand, not only that but they were around

before

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ and He only puts His stamp of approval on them, and

authority

Post by Pastor Frank
behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

I agree that it's irrelevant when things are written down. What's
important - is have they captured what Jesus really said? We don't

know.

Post by penno
Given that it's 30-50 years after his death, I think we can

confidently

Post by penno
say that there would be at least *some* errors there. Have they

captured

Post by penno
the essence of what Jesus said? We don't know that either. I mean

how

Post by penno
much was Jesus, and how much was it the early founders of

Christianity

Post by penno
pushing their own barrow? We don't know. How many of those

"important

Post by penno
commandments" were Jesus' and how many belonged to other people
*claiming* that Jesus said them?

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ

spoke

Post by Robert Gau
had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to

fly in

Post by Robert Gau
the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

I agree that Jesus said many things which went against conventional
wisdom. I think that gives a big clue to help us seperate what he

really

Post by penno
said, against that which was attributed to him, but he never actually
said. From your quotes below I would *guess* that Jesus said only

"They

Post by penno
that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick".

Post by penno
don't believe he ever claimed to be Son of God. I think that was added
much later.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why

people

Post by Robert Gau
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew

Post by Robert Gau
was b.s.

That's a really good question. I don't know why they would do that
either.

Frank - you've taken a section of my post, and isolated it - and in this
case I think you've lost the context of the message. I don't think
that's appropriate. If you need to isolate a small section like that,
please take care to see if the meaning is still there. If it's not you
may want to include the remainder below.

But I digress. I am impressed with your very big words, and confess I
had to look some up. You know what they say - you should never use a big
word when a diminutive one will do. ; )

You've got no idea what's going to happen when you die, and neither does
anyone else. How do you know there's a heaven or a hell? Because someone
told you and / or you read it in a book? If that's all - then that's a
very very long way from proof. Or maybe Jesus or God spoke to you?
People are capable of imagining all kinds of things. I don't think there
is a limit. And so you can't expect someone to believe something so
"life changing" simply because you say it is so. Maybe Jesus has spoken
to you - I wouldn't know. But he hasn't spoken to me, and until he does
I'm not going to believe he was paranormal in any way.

Post by stone
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.

Pastor Frank

2004-09-11 11:51:29 UTC

You've got no idea what's going to happen when you die, and neither does
anyone else. How do you know there's a heaven or a hell? Because someone
told you and / or you read it in a book? If that's all - then that's a
very very long way from proof.

EVERY belief lacks "proof". If something can be proven it's no longer a
belief, but a fact. Good and evil are strictly beliefs, yet they are
indispensible for any quality of life.

Or maybe Jesus or God spoke to you?

Post by penno
People are capable of imagining all kinds of things. I don't think there
is a limit.

Unbelief is also a belief. We Christians want to believe in love, for
our "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully man[ifested] in Christ Jesus.
What do YOU believe in, apart from your unbelief?

Post by penno
And so you can't expect someone to believe something so
"life changing" simply because you say it is so. Maybe Jesus has spoken
to you - I wouldn't know. But he hasn't spoken to me, and until he does
I'm not going to believe he was paranormal in any way.

Every author I read "speaks" to me. It appears you want to be deaf to
anyone but yourself, the only persona you worship and believe in. See below

Pastor Frank

Matt 13:10: And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou
unto them in parables?
11: He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more
abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he
hath.
13: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they looking see not;
and listening they hear not, neither do they understand.
14: And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By
listening ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and looking ye shall see,
and shall not perceive:
15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of
hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see
with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their
heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Gwar

2004-09-11 22:45:27 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
EVERY belief lacks "proof".

Then that lacks proof as well. & from this self-refuting premise you jump
head first into the shallow end of the pool.

penno

2004-09-12 09:21:09 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Well, Christ gives you a choice to be either a "Son of God" or a son

Post by Pastor Frank
a gun. It's YOUR choice entirely and we ALL make that choice on purpose

Post by Pastor Frank
by default. One leads to heaven, the other to hell, and all your

pedantic

Post by Pastor Frank
obfuscations and picayune doubts are irrelevant and won't change a

thing.

Post by penno
You've got no idea what's going to happen when you die, and neither does
anyone else. How do you know there's a heaven or a hell? Because someone
told you and / or you read it in a book? If that's all - then that's a
very very long way from proof.

EVERY belief lacks "proof". If something can be proven it's no longer a
belief, but a fact.

Spot on. I used to be a "bible quoting true believer". I got to the
stage where it wasn't making sense to me, and I asked myself "Why
do I believe it?" The answer was - because I was told to, and
because it was in a book. Not acceptable reasons to make radical
adjustments to my way of life. So I reject it.

Post by Pastor Frank
Good and evil are strictly beliefs, yet they are
indispensible for any quality of life.
Or maybe Jesus or God spoke to you?

Post by penno
People are capable of imagining all kinds of things. I don't think there
is a limit.

Unbelief is also a belief. We Christians want to believe in love, for

I also believe in love. But I don't see how that makes me believe
in God.

Post by Pastor Frank
our "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully man[ifested] in Christ Jesus.
What do YOU believe in, apart from your unbelief?

I'm glad you asked. : ) Yes I too find atheism as much a belief as
theism. I think to say "There is definitely a god" is just as crazy
as "There is definitely no god". So I say "I don't know if there's
a god". Which I guess makes me an agnostic. I would like there to
be some kind of god and/or afterlife, because I find the idea of
*nothing* after this life disturbing. But just because I want
something to be true, does not make it true.

Every author I read "speaks" to me. It appears you want to be deaf to
anyone but yourself, the only persona you worship and believe in. See below

No I don't want to be deaf. I want to be open to other ideas and
other beliefs. I learn so much from other people's opinions, even
when they contradict mine, and I treasure that experience.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
Matt 13:10: And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou
unto them in parables?
11: He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know
the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12: For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more
abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he
hath.
13: Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they looking see not;
and listening they hear not, neither do they understand.
14: And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By
listening ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and looking ye shall see,
15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of
hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see
with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their
heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Pastor Frank

2004-09-14 01:42:03 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Well, Christ gives you a choice to be either a "Son of God" or a son

Post by Pastor Frank
a gun. It's YOUR choice entirely and we ALL make that choice on purpose

Post by Pastor Frank
by default. One leads to heaven, the other to hell, and all your

pedantic

Post by Pastor Frank
obfuscations and picayune doubts are irrelevant and won't change a

thing.

EVERY belief lacks "proof". If something can be proven it's no longer a
belief, but a fact.

I was a true-believing atheist and why because I was brought up by
secular humanist parents who relied on popular opinions fashionable at the
time of the "awakening", the "Renaissance" and new books instead of old
ones, Nietzsche instead of Christ. I found humanism failing to deliver for
lack of love, and leaving a horrendous death toll. So I rejected it.
Christ is all about love, demanding indeed "radical adjustments in our
way of life". But then most don't need "acceptable reasons" to love and
care, but do so anyway and often quite illogically, and are the happier for
it.

Post by Pastor Frank
Unbelief is also a belief. We Christians want to believe in love, for
our "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully man[ifested] in Christ Jesus.
What do YOU believe in, apart from your unbelief?

I also believe in love. But I don't see how that makes me believe
in God.

You just quit making sense. What you don't believe in is YOUR definition
of the word "god", which is most likely an infantile version of the man
upstairs, i.e. that invisible hairy old warrior in the sky, a la Zeus or
Odin, or something along those lines. But you admit to believe in OUR
Christian definition of the word "God" cited above and again below.

Pastor Frank

1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

penno

2004-09-15 11:27:10 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Well, Christ gives you a choice to be either a "Son of God" or a

son

Post by Pastor Frank
of

Post by Pastor Frank
a gun. It's YOUR choice entirely and we ALL make that choice on

purpose

Post by Pastor Frank
or

Post by Pastor Frank
by default. One leads to heaven, the other to hell, and all your

pedantic

Post by Pastor Frank
obfuscations and picayune doubts are irrelevant and won't change a

thing.

Post by penno
You've got no idea what's going to happen when you die, and neither

does

Post by penno
anyone else. How do you know there's a heaven or a hell? Because

someone

Post by penno
told you and / or you read it in a book? If that's all - then that's a
very very long way from proof.

EVERY belief lacks "proof". If something can be proven it's no

longer a

Post by Pastor Frank
belief, but a fact.

Frank - I am starting to enjoy your posts.

I'm not even sure what humanism is. So I looked it up, and I like
it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humanism

+++
A system of thought that centers on humans and their values,
capacities, and worth
+++

I don't think it's *always* valid to point to "horrendous death
tolls" as "proof" somehow that a particular system of belief is
wrong. We'd be dismissing most systems of belief across the globe
(Christianity certainly among them). Rather I think it's certain
misguided people behind using the belief systems as a tool to gain
whatever it is they are after.

And I'm not saying you were wrong to reject humanism in favour of
Christianity. All I can say is what works for me. My point was I
don't think there are any valid reasons to take the bible as
"gospel" (pardon the pun). I don't see any reasons to believe that
Jesus was anything other than a man. I believe he was a most
extraordinary man, but a man nonetheless. And I see no reason to
believe he had paranormal powers granted to him by God.

I don't think you have any reason that I should believe in that
stuff. But I'm interested in your reasons. Why do you believe? I
don't think anyone has a valid reason for believing, and so I'm
wondering why they do. I think it's out of a deep insecurity to
need to believe there is something after this life.

Post by Saul_Sabia
Christ is all about love, demanding indeed "radical adjustments in our
way of life". But then most don't need "acceptable reasons" to love and
care, but do so anyway and often quite illogically, and are the happier for
it.

To me it is logical to love. I try very hard (without much success)
to live one of Jesus' statements "Do unto those as you would have
others do unto you" or words to that effect. I can't help but think
how mcuh happier we'd all be if we practised that as often as we
could. But when I think about a god who demanded that his son be
nailed to a cross until dead so he could reach out into forgiveness
to his own creations... Well I think that god is sadistic and evil.
There was no love involved in that act. If you say that God
"lovingly" sacrificed his own son, then I think that is a very sick
love, because this whole event was God's own creation. I cannot
believe in something that has such a disgusting event as it's
basis.

Post by Pastor Frank
Unbelief is also a belief. We Christians want to believe in love,

for

Post by Pastor Frank
our "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully man[ifested] in Christ

Jesus.

Post by Pastor Frank
What do YOU believe in, apart from your unbelief?

I also believe in love. But I don't see how that makes me believe
in God.

I don't admit to that at all. If I had a belief in God, and I don't
know if I do, it would not be a "granddaddy in the sky" belief. It
would be something that is beyond my comprehension. Something so
wonderful and so vast that I would not have the words to describe
it. If there is a God I don't think you can define it with any
words or any creeds or any philosophy. Any human definition, I
think, would be woefully incomplete.

Post by Saul_Sabia
Pastor Frank
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Pastor Frank

2004-09-17 00:00:27 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
I was a true-believing atheist and why because I was brought up by
secular humanist parents who relied on popular opinions fashionable at the
time of the "awakening", the "Renaissance" and new books instead of old
ones, Nietzsche instead of Christ. I found humanism failing to deliver for
lack of love, and leaving a horrendous death toll. So I rejected it.

Yes. Mostly charismatic "humans" who know how to sway rootless (without
religious principles) masses, like Hitler etc.

Post by penno
I don't think it's *always* valid to point to "horrendous death
tolls" as "proof" somehow that a particular system of belief is
wrong. We'd be dismissing most systems of belief across the globe
(Christianity certainly among them). Rather I think it's certain
misguided people behind using the belief systems as a tool to gain
whatever it is they are after.
And I'm not saying you were wrong to reject humanism in favour of
Christianity. All I can say is what works for me. My point was I
don't think there are any valid reasons to take the bible as
"gospel" (pardon the pun). I don't see any reasons to believe that
Jesus was anything other than a man. I believe he was a most
extraordinary man, but a man nonetheless. And I see no reason to
believe he had paranormal powers granted to him by God.
I don't think you have any reason that I should believe in that
stuff. But I'm interested in your reasons. Why do you believe? I
don't think anyone has a valid reason for believing, and so I'm
wondering why they do. I think it's out of a deep insecurity to
need to believe there is something after this life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ is all about love, demanding indeed "radical adjustments in our
way of life". But then most don't need "acceptable reasons" to love and
care, but do so anyway and often quite illogically, and are the happier for
it.

Wrong!!!! Christ IS God incarnate. He is God come in the flesh to die a
man's death for the principles of love and care we are to strive for and to
propitiate our sins.

Well I think that god is sadistic and evil.

And "I think" your mom dropped you on your head when you were a baby and
you haven't been the same since. Fortunately, what you or I think is totally
irrelevant, for in our pristine Christian NGs only what Christ thinks is
relevant.

Post by Pastor Frank
You just quit making sense. What you don't believe in is YOUR definition
of the word "god", which is most likely an infantile version of the man
upstairs, i.e. that invisible hairy old warrior in the sky, a la Zeus or
Odin, or something along those lines. But you admit to believe in OUR
Christian definition of the word "God" cited above and again below.

Well? You don't make much sense here. The word "god" is a title for a
set of principles which you subscribe to and seek to live up to, and for the
performance of which you grade yourself and derive your self-esteem from.
Christ changes the equation however dramatically, but I don't see you having
any interest in Christ and what He has to say. That makes for a bit of a
mystery why you post to Christian NGs at all. I believe you think more along
humanistic lines. Try a humanist NG.

Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness:

penno

2004-09-18 03:24:41 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
I was a true-believing atheist and why because I was brought up by
secular humanist parents who relied on popular opinions fashionable at

the

Post by Pastor Frank
time of the "awakening", the "Renaissance" and new books instead of old
ones, Nietzsche instead of Christ. I found humanism failing to deliver

for

Post by Pastor Frank
lack of love, and leaving a horrendous death toll. So I rejected it.

Yes. Mostly charismatic "humans" who know how to sway rootless (without
religious principles) masses, like Hitler etc.

I don't think Hitler was a humanist *by the generally accepted
definition* any more than, say, Pope Innocent VIII was a Christian
*by the generally accepted definition*. I don't think you can
successfully debate otherwise, without resorting to sophistry,
smoke, and mirrors.

I think it's very clear that some people will use any means they
can to direct "the masses" according to that person's wishes. It's
not the underlying belief system that is the problem, it's the
person abusing that system... But I repeat myself.

Post by penno
To me it is logical to love. I try very hard (without much success)
to live one of Jesus' statements "Do unto those as you would have
others do unto you" or words to that effect. I can't help but think
how mcuh happier we'd all be if we practised that as often as we
could. But when I think about a god who demanded that his son be
nailed to a cross until dead so he could reach out into forgiveness
to his own creations.

Wrong!!!! Christ IS God incarnate. He is God come in the flesh to die a
man's death for the principles of love and care we are to strive for and to
propitiate our sins.

If Jesus WAS God, then why did Jesus pray to God? Praying to
oneself seems a bit stupid to me.

Post by penno
Well I think that god is sadistic and evil.

And "I think" your mom dropped you on your head when you were a baby and
you haven't been the same since.

I don't find comments like this helpful. It certainly doesn't
progress your argument. However I did get a bit of a laugh -
because 1. the rudeness of it amused me, and 2. It *was* kind
of funny. : )

Post by Pastor Frank
Fortunately, what you or I think is totally
irrelevant, for in our pristine Christian NGs only what Christ thinks is
relevant.

In clear simple terms, plain english, how does Jesus' death bring
us closer to God? How is God's anger with humanity appeased by the
death of Jesus? How is it that God required a human sacrifice to be
able to forgive my sins? This God seems like an evil child playing
the most horrible of hurt-games. I think it's amazing that the
church will dress this up as if it's somehow "wonderful". I think
it's sick.

Post by penno
I don't admit to that at all. If I had a belief in God, and I don't
know if I do, it would not be a "granddaddy in the sky" belief. It
would be something that is beyond my comprehension. Something so
wonderful and so vast that I would not have the words to describe
it. If there is a God I don't think you can define it with any
words or any creeds or any philosophy. Any human definition, I
think, would be woefully incomplete.

That's - seriously - very perceptive Frank. I don't know where you
got that from. I'm not entirely sure, but you may have hit the nail
squarely on it's head. It's not how I would think of it, but it
could well be amazingly accurate... I don't think I'm at the stage
where I believe in a god though. But I am exploring.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ changes the equation however dramatically, but I don't see you having
any interest in Christ and what He has to say.

I absolutely do have an interest in Jesus' words. As I've said I
think he was a most amazing man. But I don't believe he had
paranormal powers.

Post by Pastor Frank
That makes for a bit of a
mystery why you post to Christian NGs at all. I believe you think more along
humanistic lines. Try a humanist NG.

Never even thought of that! But I do like this Christian NG.
Christianity holds great interest to me. I think there's value for
Christians to walk a similar path that I have. But at the same
time, i recognise it's not appropriate to say "my approach is the
best approach", because I don't know if it is or not.

Also I learn from people's posts. I really have learnt a lot. I'd
like to think that people can learn something from my posts, even
if it's just to say "that's crap".

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction

penno

2004-09-18 11:49:03 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
I was a true-believing atheist and why because I was brought up by
secular humanist parents who relied on popular opinions fashionable at

the

Post by Pastor Frank
time of the "awakening", the "Renaissance" and new books instead of old
ones, Nietzsche instead of Christ. I found humanism failing to deliver

for

Post by Pastor Frank
lack of love, and leaving a horrendous death toll. So I rejected it.

Yes. Mostly charismatic "humans" who know how to sway rootless (without
religious principles) masses, like Hitler etc.

Wrong!!!! Christ IS God incarnate. He is God come in the flesh to die a
man's death for the principles of love and care we are to strive for and to
propitiate our sins.

If Jesus WAS God, then why did Jesus pray to God? Praying to
oneself seems a bit stupid to me.

Post by penno
Well I think that god is sadistic and evil.

And "I think" your mom dropped you on your head when you were a baby and
you haven't been the same since.

I don't find comments like this helpful. It certainly doesn't
progress your argument. However I did get a bit of a laugh -
because 1. the rudeness of it amused me, and 2. It *was* kind
of funny. : )

Post by Pastor Frank
Fortunately, what you or I think is totally
irrelevant, for in our pristine Christian NGs only what Christ thinks is
relevant.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ changes the equation however dramatically, but I don't see you having
any interest in Christ and what He has to say.

I absolutely do have an interest in Jesus' words. As I've said I
think he was a most amazing man. But I don't believe he had
paranormal powers.

Post by Pastor Frank
That makes for a bit of a
mystery why you post to Christian NGs at all. I believe you think more along
humanistic lines. Try a humanist NG.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction

Pastor Fank

2004-09-19 02:33:35 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
I was a true-believing atheist and why because I was brought up by
secular humanist parents who relied on popular opinions fashionable at

the

Post by Pastor Frank
time of the "awakening", the "Renaissance" and new books instead of old
ones, Nietzsche instead of Christ. I found humanism failing to deliver

for

Post by Pastor Frank
lack of love, and leaving a horrendous death toll. So I rejected it.

Yes. Mostly charismatic "humans" who know how to sway rootless (without
religious principles) masses, like Hitler etc.

Non sequitur. Whether Hitler confessed to be a humanist is irrelevant to
your criteria, i.e. one whose values "center on humans and their values,
capacities and worth", and I doubt that Hitler had any particular
convictions other than those popular at the time.

Post by penno
I think it's very clear that some people will use any means they
can to direct "the masses" according to that person's wishes. It's
not the underlying belief system that is the problem, it's the
person abusing that system... But I repeat myself.

`That's also non sequitur. We are posting to religious NGs, where religion
represents a set of universally known and unchanging values, in this case
those advocated by Christ. Everybody aims to act according to his belief
system, many fail. Some are ashamed of their weakness, others seek to
justify.

Wrong!!!! Christ IS God incarnate. He is God come in the flesh to die a
man's death for the principles of love and care we are to strive for and to
propitiate our sins.

If Jesus WAS God, then why did Jesus pray to God? Praying to
oneself seems a bit stupid to me.

Because like He said: "I and my Father are ONE". It's like the dreamer
and the dreamt, they are one and the same, yet they are two.

Post by penno
Well I think that god is sadistic and evil.

And "I think" your mom dropped you on your head when you were a baby and
you haven't been the same since.

I don't find comments like this helpful. It certainly doesn't
progress your argument. However I did get a bit of a laugh -
because 1. the rudeness of it amused me, and 2. It *was* kind
of funny. : )

Post by Pastor Frank
Fortunately, what you or I think is totally
irrelevant, for in our pristine Christian NGs only what Christ thinks is
relevant.

In clear simple terms, plain english, how does Jesus' death bring
us closer to God?

Without Christ's death on the cross, we wouldn't have noticed. We
certainly notice a parent who throws himself on the proverbial grenade in
order to save his children.

Post by penno
How is God's anger with humanity appeased by the
death of Jesus?

Many parents are angry with their children yet love them deeply, and
would still be willing to sacrifice their lives for them. Christ is the
parent come in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Read again Jesus talking about
that with atheist Philip.

Post by penno
How is it that God required a human sacrifice to be
able to forgive my sins?

Not God. It's we who require our parents to sacrifice themselves for us
to prove their unconditional love for us. Only then do we believe them and
in them, and know, that they don't hold a grudge against us for our failures
and us disappointing them over and over by our disobedience and wilfulness.
Only then can we stop judging and punishing ourselves for our shortcomkings
and get on with the job of improving on our Father's creation, advancing His
Kingdom of Heaven, to where everyone loves and cares.

This God seems like an evil child playing

Post by penno
the most horrible of hurt-games. I think it's amazing that the
church will dress this up as if it's somehow "wonderful". I think
it's sick.

It should be, considering your definition of the word "god".

Post by Pastor Frank
I don't admit to that at all. If I had a belief in God, and I don't

Post by penno
know if I do, it would not be a "granddaddy in the sky" belief. It
would be something that is beyond my comprehension. Something so
wonderful and so vast that I would not have the words to describe
it. If there is a God I don't think you can define it with any
words or any creeds or any philosophy. Any human definition, I
think, would be woefully incomplete.

First step is to throw your god out and replace him with the God, Father
in Heaven, Abba / daddy of Christ.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ changes the equation however dramatically, but I don't see you having
any interest in Christ and what He has to say.

I absolutely do have an interest in Jesus' words. As I've said I
think he was a most amazing man. But I don't believe he had
paranormal powers.

Read up on the placebo effect and believe that not Christ's, but your
own faith can heal you. Christ only facilitates. That's why He cept asking:
Do you believe I can heal you or your child? And if the answer was no, He
couldn't, like when He went back to His home town.

Post by Pastor Frank
That makes for a bit of a
mystery why you post to Christian NGs at all. I believe you think more along
humanistic lines. Try a humanist NG.

Never even thought of that! But I do like this Christian NG.
Christianity holds great interest to me. I think there's value for
Christians to walk a similar path that I have. But at the same
time, i recognise it's not appropriate to say "my approach is the
best approach", because I don't know if it is or not.
Also I learn from people's posts. I really have learnt a lot. I'd
like to think that people can learn something from my posts, even
if it's just to say "that's crap".

My advice is: Don't listen too much to people, including myself. All you
will see is them at their particular stage of spiritual maturity, which may
not be yours at all and may merely confuse you. Stick to scripture and find
out the many layers of meaning it has beyond the mere literalist.

Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness:

Travis

2004-11-15 17:42:16 UTC

You're missing the point, faith is what the Bible teaches! The bible clearly
states that all scripture are true and inspired by God. Jesus was and is God
(the son) and part of the trinity ( Father,SON, Holy Spirit) we cannot
question His importance because He is the sole savior of man kind.
Why quetion something that is to inspire and help us if all it requires is
alittle faith.

Christ die , Was Buried, and rose on the third day!

God bless you for your seeking the truth, it is there. I hope He speaks to
you through this reply!
Bro. Travis

Post by penno
says...

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

That's a really good question. I don't know why they would do that
either. To be honest, I'm not well-versed in who died for what. I don't
really care. Maybe his followers, after his death, became so convinced
that God was in Jesus and Jesus was in God, that they had to conclude
that Jesus was the son of God. To them it was the truth.
Who knows - maybe he *did* claim to be Son of God. We'll never know. But
I don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin, turned water into wine, was
resurrected, etc, etc. Hard evidence of this is non-existant. Even
reasonable evidence I find to be severely lacking. And given this lack
of evidence for the miraculous things, I find it reasonable to doubt he
ever claimed to be Son of God.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of

some

Post by Pastor Frank
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the

cohesiveness

Post by Pastor Frank
of His superb philosophy of life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal

the

Post by Pastor Frank
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that

are

Post by Pastor Frank
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not

Post by Pastor Frank
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's

lives,

Post by Pastor Frank
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was

lost.

Post by Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I

judge

persons,

Post by Pastor Frank
which need no repentance.

m***@orthodoxrings.com

2013-09-02 19:24:29 UTC

Some of it is captured in the response of the two robbers being crucified with Jesus. One mocked and one repented. One found eternal life separated from God and one found eternal life with God in paradise...

Matt
www.OrthodoxRings.com

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of

some

Post by Pastor Frank
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the

cohesiveness

Post by Pastor Frank
of His superb philosophy of life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal

the

Post by Pastor Frank
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that

are

Post by Pastor Frank
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not

Post by Pastor Frank
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's

lives,

Post by Pastor Frank
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was

lost.

Post by Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I

judge

persons,

Post by Pastor Frank
which need no repentance.

m***@orthodoxrings.com

2013-09-02 19:28:07 UTC

This is what I was talking about... in the paragraph across from the St. Dismas icon: http://www.orthodoxrings.com/Articles.html

Post by m***@orthodoxrings.com
Some of it is captured in the response of the two robbers being crucified with Jesus. One mocked and one repented. One found eternal life separated from God and one found eternal life with God in paradise...
Matt
www.OrthodoxRings.com

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of

some

Post by Pastor Frank
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the

cohesiveness

Post by Pastor Frank
of His superb philosophy of life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal

the

Post by Pastor Frank
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that

are

Post by Pastor Frank
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not

Post by Pastor Frank
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's

lives,

Post by Pastor Frank
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was

lost.

Post by Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I

judge

persons,

Post by Pastor Frank
which need no repentance.

m***@orthodoxrings.com

2013-09-02 19:34:48 UTC

The key is accepting His love for us and desiring to be with Him and not alone with ourselves...

This is what I was talking about... in the paragraph across from the St. Dismas icon: http://www.orthodoxrings.com/WhatsWithTheThreeBarCross.html

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of

some

Post by Pastor Frank
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the

cohesiveness

Post by Pastor Frank
of His superb philosophy of life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal

the

Post by Pastor Frank
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that

are

Post by Pastor Frank
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not

Post by Pastor Frank
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's

lives,

Post by Pastor Frank
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was

lost.

Post by Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I

judge

persons,

Post by Pastor Frank
which need no repentance.

m***@orthodoxrings.com

2013-09-02 19:38:46 UTC

Sorry, don't go to Article's page... go to this article and scroll down to St. Dismas icon: http://www.orthodoxrings.com/WhatsWithTheThreeBarCross.html

Post by m***@orthodoxrings.com
This is what I was talking about... in the paragraph across from the St. Dismas icon: http://www.orthodoxrings.com/Articles.html

Post by Pastor Frank
We are talking about ancient moral and social philosophy here. WHEN
anything was written down is totally irrelevant to what Christ is all

about.

behind

Post by Pastor Frank
them. See below

Like I said above, virtually every word and principle Christ spoke

had

Post by Pastor Frank
been spoken before, with notable exceptions, things which seem to fly in

the

Post by Pastor Frank
face of logic, such as "love thy enemies" and others. See below.

The problem I have with that is it seems very hard to understand why people
would
put that son of god thing in and then die for it when they secretly knew it
was b.s.

Post by Pastor Frank
Christ however believed so firmly in the accuracy and veracity of

His

Post by Pastor Frank
principles, that He allowed His crucifixion, rather than recanting
anything. THAT was the stamp of approval of a now supreme authority

which

Post by Pastor Frank
was needed to form the basis of a viable religion.

Post by Pastor Frank
Again, whether Christ was accurately reported or not, regardless of

some

Post by Pastor Frank
apparent contradictions, makes no substantial difference to the

cohesiveness

Post by Pastor Frank
of His superb philosophy of life.

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank
THE MANDATE OF JESUS
**Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal

the

Post by Pastor Frank
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind.
**Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that

are

Post by Pastor Frank
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not

Post by Pastor Frank
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
**Jesus in Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's

lives,

Post by Pastor Frank
but to save them.
**Jesus Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was

lost.

Post by Pastor Frank
**Jesus in Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I

judge

persons,

Post by Pastor Frank
which need no repentance.

AWS

2004-06-19 18:05:15 UTC

Most interesting debates - one's that have been going on for thousands
of years. Nothing is proven, just speculation and man's intervention
in writing conflicting scriptures. Reslight, I wish I could share
your faith in man's written works, but there are too many of them,
conflicting and satisfying Man's need. I hope each of you will take a
look at my book and give me your opinion on the same debates
confronted by the traveler. And, I'd be glad to send you both a free
.pdf copy, so Mr. Bob doesn't have to contribute the proposed billions
I am making from promoting my book.

Post by Reslight
How do we know who really is right?
Only in the scriptures of the Holy Bible do we find satsifying answers to
this question.

you are severely deluded if you believe 'answers' can be found in a book
written by primitives for primitives.

Post by Reslight
Only in the Bible is it revealed why there is so much
delusion and confusion, and why God is permitting it. God knows that mankind
has misunderstood him.

Very convenient, but meaningless

Post by Reslight
Yet, as the scriptures tell us, very few will come to
understanding in this age through the aid of the holy spirit. In the age to
come, all will be made plain to all.

We will not be alive to have anything revealed after dirty bombs spread in the
name of some different god wipe the rest of us out. They are not concerned
with time, they will wait their opportunity.
Humans are MAD, insane
Created by god - what rubbish
Man created gods in their own image

Post by Reslight
http://reslight.addr.com/l-evil.html
http://reslight.addr.com/l-atone.html
Christian love,
Ronald
alt.atheism removed from crossposts

Post by AWS
It has been extremely interesting reading many of the notes, some
adamant - as if they really had the answers. Others, personal opinions
and confusion; all coming down to ones' individual belief. However,
like Man's religion, so many of these comments try and convert others
to their way of thinking.
It really is very interesting debate, and also the theme of my new
book; "God must be Pissed! 'cause I'm confused as Hell". Which is one
man's quest, to find the true path to God, if in fact there is a God,
along the "paths" found in the three prominent religions for believers
in a monotheistic, God-that is, Christianity (God), Islam (Allah), and
Judaism (Jehovah).
Additional information can be found at http://www.awschade.com
Enjoy the debates!

The_Sage

2004-07-03 02:38:02 UTC

Date written: 19 Jun 2004 11:05:15 -0700
Most interesting debates - one's that have been going on for thousands
of years. Nothing is proven, just speculation and man's intervention
in writing conflicting scriptures. Reslight, I wish I could share
your faith in man's written works, but there are too many of them,
conflicting and satisfying Man's need. I hope each of you will take a
look at my book and give me your opinion on the same debates
confronted by the traveler. And, I'd be glad to send you both a free
.pdf copy, so Mr. Bob doesn't have to contribute the proposed billions
I am making from promoting my book.

I'm sorry I missed the "debate" but I guess it wasn't meant to be as I am not
one of those people who are "confused by the inexhaustible interpretations and
inconsistency of Mankind's Religious Doctrines". Unlike yourself and those you
address in your book, I am not confused by the three-ring circus that is called
religion. You assume there is a God and then you assume that this God must be
pissed. A more reasonable thought would be that if we pretend there is a God,
the real world around us demonstrates that this God doesn't give a damn what
people say about Her/Him/It/Them. You can walk all over any and all Gods and
they all "act" like not one of them care one way or the other -- either that or
they "act" like they don't exist. Hmmmm!

Unfortunately I'm one of those type of people who doesn't think it is worth my
money to pay for a book on a topic that can only be endlessly debated because it
is a topic that isn't based on any facts, just hearsay and meresay. We could sit
here all day and argue over what new clothes the Emperor put on today, but it
won't change the fact that the Emperor is naked. I would like to accept your
offer of a free book, if you were willing to offer me one, but in turn I would
expect you to be serious about having a debate on it's contents. What I mean by
that is that I presume you haven't made up your mind yet and are more interested
in the pursuit of truth, wherever that might lead you, than proving a
pretermined point.

Just to let you know, I don't sit here and wonder whose side God is on because I
haven't gotten past the point of wondering if there if there is even a God or
not. Objective observation has demonstrated for me that God can only "exist" if
one pretends God exists, so why bother "studying" something that cannot be
demonstrated to exist outside of anyone's imagination?

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Pastor Frank

2004-07-04 01:02:13 UTC

First of all, those who are "confused" don't like to think. They are the
ones who told their teachers: "Just tell me what you want me to regurgitate
on exams and I will learn that. Don't ask me to take an interest or think
about anything, because I won't".
Jesus tells us, that those who search will find, and those who ask will
be given unto, and to those who knock, doors will be opened etc. etc. Those
who just stand there scratching their heads nothing will be given, and what
little they have will be taken away from them.
Those who are not confused are the ones who read books like Aldous
Huxley's classic: Perennial Philosophy, where he compares different
religious doctrines and finds their commonality.
All others are just ignorant and proud of it.

Pastor Frank

SEEKING
Jesus in Mk:10:27: And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Jesus in Mk:9:23: Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things
are possible to him that believeth.
Jesus in Mt:7:7-8: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall
find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh
receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall
be opened.

The_Sage

2004-07-04 02:34:19 UTC

Date written: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:02:13 -0400

Post by AWS
Most interesting debates - one's that have been going on for thousands
of years. Nothing is proven, just speculation and man's intervention
in writing conflicting scriptures. Reslight, I wish I could share
your faith in man's written works, but there are too many of them,
conflicting and satisfying Man's need. I hope each of you will take a
look at my book and give me your opinion on the same debates
confronted by the traveler. And, I'd be glad to send you both a free
.pdf copy, so Mr. Bob doesn't have to contribute the proposed billions
I am making from promoting my book.

First of all, those who are "confused" don't like to think.

Thank you for that sweeping generalization, now let's see if you can back that
up with some facts instead of your meresay propaganda.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

stone

2004-07-04 07:48:08 UTC

The_Sage wrote in message ...

Date written: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:02:13 -0400

I'm sorry I missed the "debate" but I guess it wasn't meant to be as I am not
one of those people who are "confused by the inexhaustible

interpretations and

Post by The_Sage
inconsistency of Mankind's Religious Doctrines".

First of all, those who are "confused" don't like to think.

Thank you for that sweeping generalization, now let's see if you can back that
up with some facts instead of your meresay propaganda.
The Sage

Read this Sage; it really happened to me around 1975.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Physics. I did a scientific experiment
to test for the
existence of God. I simply looked up to the ceiling and asked God to
give me
evidence that He really existed so that I would know and not just
believe. I did this
several times over a period of weeks or months. I assumed that if He
really did
exist, He would do this because He loved me and didn't want me to go
to hell. I
did this as a serious experiment; it's either true or it isn't. I was
an agnostic
science student at the time. Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can
heal by the
laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists. The Aura energy field around a healer's body can transmit
healing energy to the body
of the patient; this can be filmed by a technique called Kirlian
photography.
http://www.synergy-co.com/kirlian1-6.html
So the healing miracles of Jesus could be true. Later I studied UFOs
and a UFO
researcher pointed out that there are flying objects in the Bible that
are associated
with angels that look like the UFOs that people are taking photgraphs
of today.
So, Bible stories of angels could be true too. I got a book on the
occult. It said
that certain sensitive people and psychics can see into the spirit
world; they can
see little glimpses of spiritual beings that look like points of light
in the air. I
started reading the New testament to see what it said. Around this
time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from
somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts. I also started seeing little colored
flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like
visions, not
really in the physical world. I decided that this was evidence that
demons exist
and they were attacking me with evil thoughts trying to stop me from
becoming a
christian; I saw glimpses into the spirit world during these attacks
that looked like
little colored points of light in the air, like the occult book said.
Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it
seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream. I had an
overwhelming feeling during this vision like I knew that He had all
the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen. I heard His
voice
paraphrasing something written in the Bible.
He called me by my name
and said, you must die before you enter society. Unless the seed die,
the tree cannot bear good fruit. All trees that do not bear fruit,
will be cut down. He was paraphrasing this scripture in the New
Testament:
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it
bringeth forth much fruit.
This scripture goes along with these that follow it.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth
his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my
Father honour.
The interpretation is that when a man comes to Jesus for salvation, to
be saved from hell, that man must allow his old way of living to die,
and he must take on a new life of serving Jesus, so that he can bear
good fruit for the Kingdom of God.
Immediately after that I woke up. I asked God to give me proof; He
gave me
proof. I have been a fundamentalist christian ever since. If you
really want proof,
ask for it seriously, like I did. Have the idea in your mind that if
God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.
In the New Testament Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the
life. No one comes to the Father but
by Me. The only way to get to God is through Jesus Christ, all other
ways are
false. It is not enough just to know that God exists, you can only get
to heaven
through christianity all other religions lead to hell. When Jesus spoke
I heard one word after another like normal speech, but when I thought
about it, all of the words seemed to have happened at the same time.
It was like time did not make any sense. His voice was like that of
any normal man, not to deep, and not too high in pitch. The words
seemed to fill my entire being as if they were put into me with real
power.
This happened to me in 1975. Jesus was coming to me in a darkened room
so I did not get a completely clear look at him. At the time, I
thought he looked similar to Max Von Sidow in the movie THE GREATEST
STORY EVER TOLD, except His hair was all the way down to His
shoulders; longer than in the movie. I did notice darkness around His
chin as if He had a short beard. His face is different from Max Von
Sydow's but there are similarities. He seems to look younger than
that, and more cheerful.
When He said the words, "will be cut down", the tone of His voice
changed as if He did not want to frighten me. After the words were
finished, He put His hand on my back and smiled at me and disappeared.

You need to consider what type of a test I was doing. I was probing
for an answer to a question that is not bound to the physical world.
True reality as we observe it is composed of the physical world, which
is easily tested by physics and chemistry, and it is also composed of
the mental dimension, which does really exist, but not in the physical
world. [Your thoughts and desires and will do really exist, but not in
the physical world. They are connected to the physical world by your
physical body.] If God does exist, as He is described, then He is like
a universal mind or consciousness, that created everything and is in
control of everything. To test for a universal mind, I needed to do an
unusual experiment. The reason that I decided that these points of
light were evidence of demons is because of this:
The occult book that dealt with demons and spirits said that glimpses
into the Spirit world looked like points of light in the air.
And also, I would hear evil voices in my mind, threatening me and
saying the kind of things that demons would say [threats, insults
against me and God, etc...], and I heard these thoughts as if they
were coming from the points of light. As if the points of light were
appearing, saying these things to me telepathically, so that I heard
them in my mind, and then disappearing.
This was surely a phenomenon that looked to me like attacks by evil
spirits or demons. After I became a Christian I prayed to Jesus Christ
to ask Him to protect me from the attacks of demons, and the problem
went away. According to the Bible, the Devil and his demons are
controlling everyone that is not a real Christian, to a greater or
lesser degree. (Some people are completely demon possessed.) When you
try to become a Christian, you are breaking free from the demon's
control and that is when you will notice them trying to fight against
you. If Satan already has you moving in the wrong direction, he does
not need to fight you; he has already got you. Try to become a real
Christian, and try to break free from the Devil's control, then he
will start to fight against you to try to prevent you from becoming a
Christian and getting right with God. This is what the evidence
suggests that I was experiencing when I started to become a Christian,
in 1975.
Also, these points of light that I was seeing, looked like little
visions, not like a real physical phenomenon that happens in the
physical world. Therefore, I did not consider that a physical form of
energy was of any importance here. Physical energy of the sort that
physics studies, might not have been involved.
Remember, the mental dimension is real and does exist, but not in the
physical world, just like your thoughts and desires exist, but not in
the physical world. Your mind is connected to the physical world
through your physical body, so there is a definite connection between
these two different dimensions. Both dimensions really exist.
I had to do an unusual type of experiment because of the unususal
nature of what I was testing for: - The Existence of God.
Experimental controls associated with my experiment:
Believe that if God really exixts then He does care about you and He
does not want you to go to hell. Believe that He would prove Himself
to you to prevent you from going to Hell, if He really does exist.
Ask God to prove to you that He exists, several times over a period of
weeks or months.
Have patience to wait for the proof.
I was involved in Science and that is the kind of proof that God gave
me. If you are involved in something else God will probably prove
Himself to you in a way that you can best understand. He meets you
where you are at.

Jesus Christ said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.

Do not allow yourself to be deceived by the many false religions of
the World.
False religions lead to hell. The New Testament, of the Christian
Bible, is the real way that leads to heaven and to God. (The King
James version is the most accurate.)
You can read the New Testament for free online at this website:
http://www.usaquality.com/bible/list_bcv/all.html
You can listen to the New Testament being read by someone else, for
free online at this website:
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html Start with Matthew
and go all the way through to Revelation.
It is good to ask God to teach you what the New Testament really means
before you read it or listen to it.

Post by The_Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

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The_Sage

2004-07-05 06:12:26 UTC

Date written: 4 Jul 2004 07:48:08 GMT

First of all, those who are "confused" don't like to think.

Thank you for that sweeping generalization, now let's see if you can back that
up with some facts instead of your meresay propaganda.

Did you try your experiment with as many Gods as you could to see which ones
answered and which ones would not "reply"? Then what you didn't wasn't science,
it was religious confirmation. How do you know if the God you choose to
communicate with wasn't the Jehovah Witnesses God or the Mormon God or the
Catholic God or the Southern Baptist God or Satan in disguise and so on and so
forth? Even if there were a God, knowing that a God exists would not be very
useful as there are over 1000 versions of the christian God alone and not one of
them is alike, so which version is the real version?

Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can heal by the
laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists.

Name a few of these legitimate scientists that are studying christian healings
then.

The Aura energy field around a healer's body can transmit healing energy to the body
of the patient; this can be filmed by a technique called Kirlian photography.
http://www.synergy-co.com/kirlian1-6.html

Kirlian photography is a scam: http://skepdic.com/kirlian.html

So the healing miracles of Jesus could be true. Later I studied UFOs and a UFO
researcher pointed out that there are flying objects in the Bible that are associated
with angels that look like the UFOs that people are taking photgraphs of today.
So, Bible stories of angels could be true too. I got a book on the occult. It said
that certain sensitive people and psychics can see into the spirit world; they can
see little glimpses of spiritual beings that look like points of light in the air. I
started reading the New testament to see what it said.

I hate to tell you this but not one of the things you mentioned exist in real
life. They are all fairytales and you are simply using one fairytale to justify
yet another one.

Around this time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts.

Where else could your thoughts come from and how would you know for a fact that
they came from somewhere else instead of right here?

I also started seeing little colored flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like visions, not
really in the physical world.

You mean it was in the imaginary world then.

I decided that this was evidence that demons exist
and they were attacking me with evil thoughts trying to stop me from becoming a
christian; I saw glimpses into the spirit world during these attacks that looked like
little colored points of light in the air, like the occult book said.

What was the title of the occult book?

Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream.

A dream is still a dream no matter how "real" it seems.

I had an overwhelming feeling during this
vision like I knew that He had all the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen.

Feelings are not facts.

I heard His voice
paraphrasing something written in the Bible. He called me by my name
and said, you must die before you enter society. Unless the seed die,
the tree cannot bear good fruit. All trees that do not bear fruit,
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
This scripture goes along with these that follow it.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth
his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am,
there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
The interpretation is that when a man comes to Jesus for salvation, to
be saved from hell, that man must allow his old way of living to die,
and he must take on a new life of serving Jesus, so that he can bear
good fruit for the Kingdom of God.
Immediately after that I woke up. I asked God to give me proof; He gave me
proof. I have been a fundamentalist christian ever since. If you
really want proof, ask for it seriously, like I did. Have the idea in your mind that if
God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.

So sell my soul sight unseen to an unknown God without having any knowledge or
rational reason for doing so, other than just because you say to?

In the New Testament Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the
life. No one comes to the Father but
by Me. The only way to get to God is through Jesus Christ, all other ways are
false. It is not enough just to know that God exists, you can only get to heaven
through christianity all other religions lead to hell.

So God so loved the world that He will fry you in Hell if you don't believe He
so loved the world? And what wonderful logical reason would I want to serve a
cruel tyrant like that for again?

When Jesus spoke
I heard one word after another like normal speech, but when I thought
about it, all of the words seemed to have happened at the same time.
It was like time did not make any sense. His voice was like that of
any normal man, not to deep, and not too high in pitch. The words
seemed to fill my entire being as if they were put into me with real
power.
This happened to me in 1975. Jesus was coming to me in a darkened room
so I did not get a completely clear look at him.

How do you know it was really Jesus then? What "test" did you perform to
distinguish that Jesus from the anti-Christ...and don't tell me it was based on
just a "feeling" as feelings are not facts.

You need to consider what type of a test I was doing. I was probing
for an answer to a question that is not bound to the physical world.

I have already considered what kind of "test" you were doing and it wasn't a
test at all, it was a confirmation of what you already believed before you even
started. You believed there could only be one God, that Jesus existed, that UFOs
exist, that psychics are the real thing, that occult books were not written for
the superstitious and gullible, and that Kirlian photography is not a scam...and
you were wrong on all counts. None of those things are facts.

True reality as we observe it is composed of the physical world, which
is easily tested by physics and chemistry, and it is also composed of
the mental dimension, which does really exist, but not in the physical
world. [Your thoughts and desires and will do really exist, but not in
the physical world. They are connected to the physical world by your
physical body.]

You don't know that for a demonstrable fact, that is simply what you want to
believe.

If God does exist, as He is described,

There are over 1000 descriptions of God and they are all mutually exclusive, so
which description did you pick and why did you pick it?

then He is like
a universal mind or consciousness, that created everything and is in
control of everything.

Considering just how out-of-control this world is, obviously there can be no God
in control of everything.

To test for a universal mind, I needed to do an
unusual experiment. The reason that I decided that these points of
The occult book that dealt with demons and spirits said that glimpses
into the Spirit world looked like points of light in the air.

Name that occult book.

And also, I would hear evil voices in my mind, threatening me and
saying the kind of things that demons would say [threats, insults
against me and God, etc...],

How do you know they were evil? Maybe you got the wrong God and they were using
reverse psychology on you to try and get you to join their God cult?

and I heard these thoughts as if they
were coming from the points of light. As if the points of light were
appearing, saying these things to me telepathically, so that I heard
them in my mind, and then disappearing.

There is no such thing as telepathy in the real world.

This was surely a phenomenon that looked to me like attacks by evil
spirits or demons. After I became a Christian I prayed to Jesus Christ
to ask Him to protect me from the attacks of demons, and the problem
went away. According to the Bible, the Devil and his demons are
controlling everyone that is not a real Christian, to a greater or
lesser degree. (Some people are completely demon possessed.) When you
try to become a Christian, you are breaking free from the demon's
control and that is when you will notice them trying to fight against
you. If Satan already has you moving in the wrong direction, he does
not need to fight you; he has already got you. Try to become a real
Christian, and try to break free from the Devil's control, then he
will start to fight against you to try to prevent you from becoming a
Christian and getting right with God. This is what the evidence
suggests that I was experiencing when I started to become a Christian,
in 1975.

I would believe you except for one thing: not a word of what you have said is
even remotely a fact. In the whole entire part of the world that I live in,
there are absolutely no points of light, no UFOs, no legitimate psychics, no
spirits or demons or Gods, and there is no one that can show anyone these things
outside of their imagination. That is all make believe and not real life. And
now you come along and expect us to believe that in your little corner of the
world, and only in your little corner of the world, things are completely
different? Well I don't buy it as I only believe in facts, not poorly told
fantasy.

I sincerely hope this isn't an example of one of those "most interesting
debates" that AWS was alluding to as this was not a debate but a blind faith
assertion.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

bluskie

2004-07-05 21:45:11 UTC

Date written: 4 Jul 2004 07:48:08 GMT

Post by AWS
Most interesting debates - one's that have been going on for thousands
of years. Nothing is proven, just speculation and man's intervention
in writing conflicting scriptures.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Physics. I did a scientific experiment to test for the
existence of God. I simply looked up to the ceiling and asked God to give me
evidence that He really existed so that I would know and not just believe. I did this
several times over a period of weeks or months. I assumed that if He really did
exist, He would do this because He loved me and didn't want me to go to hell. I
did this as a serious experiment; it's either true or it isn't.

It's not true.

Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can heal by the
laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists.

LIAR!

I hate to tell you this but not one of the things you mentioned exist in real

life. They are all fairytales and you are simply using one fairytale to justify
yet another one.

Around this time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts.

SCHIZO LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
Where else could your thoughts come from and how would you know for a fact that
they came from somewhere else instead of right here?

I also started seeing little colored flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like visions, not
really in the physical world.

You mean it was in the imaginary world then.

lunatic LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
What was the title of the occult book?

Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream.

INSANE LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
A dream is still a dream no matter how "real" it seems.

I had an overwhelming feeling during this
vision like I knew that He had all the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen.

delusional LIAR!

God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.

control freak LIAR!

more delusions LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
Name that occult book.

The holy babble of LIARS

delusional LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
There is no such thing as telepathy in the real world.

LIAR!

Pastor Frank

2004-07-06 01:31:04 UTC

Date written: 4 Jul 2004 07:48:08 GMT

Post by AWS
Most interesting debates - one's that have been going on for thousands
of years. Nothing is proven, just speculation and man's intervention
in writing conflicting scriptures.

It's not true.

Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can heal by the
laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists.

LIAR!

I hate to tell you this but not one of the things you mentioned exist in real

life. They are all fairytales and you are simply using one fairytale to justify
yet another one.

Around this time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from somewhere
else, they weren't my thoughts.

SCHIZO LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
Where else could your thoughts come from and how would you know for a fact that
they came from somewhere else instead of right here?

I also started seeing little colored flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like visions, not
really in the physical world.

You mean it was in the imaginary world then.

lunatic LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
What was the title of the occult book?

Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it seemed like He
was really there, it was not a dream.

INSANE LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
A dream is still a dream no matter how "real" it seems.

I had an overwhelming feeling during this
vision like I knew that He had all the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen.

delusional LIAR!

God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.

control freak LIAR!

more delusions LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
Name that occult book.

The holy babble of LIARS

delusional LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
There is no such thing as telepathy in the real world.

LIAR!

Stop spamming our pristine Christian NGs with your atheist idiocies,
bluskie. Surely you could find some atheist NGs to post to, if you try? LIAR
indeed!!!!!!

Pastor Frank

**Gal 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"
**Jesus in Jn:15:18: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before
it hated you.
**Jesus in Lk:6:26: Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for
so did their fathers to the false prophets
**Jesus in Jn:15:25: But this cometh to pass, that the word might be
fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
**Jesus in Matt 5:11, 12: Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and
persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my
sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: For great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
**Jesus in Jn:16:2-3 They shall put you out of their houses of worship: Yea,
the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God
service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known
the Father, nor me.
**Jesus in Lk:23:34: Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know
not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

bluskie

2004-07-06 16:01:09 UTC

Date written: 4 Jul 2004 07:48:08 GMT

Post by AWS
Most interesting debates - one's that have been going on for

thousands

Post by AWS
of years. Nothing is proven, just speculation and man's

intervention

Post by AWS
in writing conflicting scriptures.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Physics. I did a scientific experiment

to test for the

existence of God. I simply looked up to the ceiling and asked God to

give me

evidence that He really existed so that I would know and not just

believe. I did this

several times over a period of weeks or months. I assumed that if He

really did

exist, He would do this because He loved me and didn't want me to go to

hell. I

did this as a serious experiment; it's either true or it isn't.

It's not true.

Later I got involved in
parapsychology and found out that there really are people that can heal

by the

laying on of hands as Jesus did and they are being studied by
scientists.

LIAR!

I hate to tell you this but not one of the things you mentioned exist

in real

Post by The_Sage
life. They are all fairytales and you are simply using one fairytale to

justify

Post by The_Sage
yet another one.

Around this time I started
hearing evil and threatening thoughts coming into my mind as if from

somewhere

else, they weren't my thoughts.

SCHIZO LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
Where else could your thoughts come from and how would you know for a

fact that

Post by The_Sage
they came from somewhere else instead of right here?

I also started seeing little colored flashes of light
in the air around the time I heard these evil thoughts; they were like

visions, not

really in the physical world.

You mean it was in the imaginary world then.

I decided that this was evidence that demons exist
and they were attacking me with evil thoughts trying to stop me from

becoming a

christian; I saw glimpses into the spirit world during these attacks

that looked like

little colored points of light in the air, like the occult book said.

lunatic LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
What was the title of the occult book?

Then one night
when I was asleep, I saw a night vision of Jesus talking to me; it

seemed like He

was really there, it was not a dream.

INSANE LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
A dream is still a dream no matter how "real" it seems.

I had an overwhelming feeling during this
vision like I knew that He had all the power in the
universe; like anything He commands to happen will happen.

delusional LIAR!

God really does prove Himself, then you will serve Him.

control freak LIAR!

more delusions LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
Name that occult book.

The holy babble of LIARS

delusional LIAR!

Post by The_Sage
There is no such thing as telepathy in the real world.

LIAR!

Stop spamming our pristine Christian NGs with your atheist idiocies,
bluskie. Surely you could find some atheist NGs to post to, if you try? LIAR
indeed!!!!!!
Pastor Frank

Thanks for that advice pastor fake frank schierenberg, christians
like pastor fake and his cult members are pathological liars, Indeed!

Ted

2004-07-10 17:29:37 UTC

1. So you will know my religious orientation:

I am an agnostic. I absolutely believe in the existence of the god[s].
They must exist. Random chemical interaction cannot explain life.
The basic processes required for life to exist are effectively
impossible, even allowing for a googles of google's of planetary
systems. The odd's against the formation of the single protein convert
a sequence of DNA into the specified protein is 17 raised to the
4,000,000th power (or was it to convert a protein into a DNA strand, it
has been a very long time since I studied biochem and was doing clinical
research, it was one or the other, I do know that, the number even
caused 2 times Nobel Prize winner and confirmed atheist Isaac Asimov to
doubt his atheism). That is just one protein, and their are thousands
each with numbers like that as well as the DNA stands with the coding
for those proteins and they had to all be present in one location such
that they could be enclosed in a lipid shell to be called a living cell.
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE without deliberate intelligent creation.

We stand on the doorstep of being able to do this process ourselves.
But even allowing some sort of aliens created life of earth (possible,
but I doubt it), you have the question of where did the aliens come
from. Eventually you are force to perform the same analysis as St
Thomas Aquinas. Either life as ALWAYS existed, or it was the creation
of some always existing god[s].

2. As to the religious scriptures, there are indeed too many to be able
to decipher which are the most correct. All including the Bible, Torah,
Necromicon, ... contain truths, and all contain opinions and attitudes
of MEN. If there is an actual religious scripture that is the work of a
god I do not know what it might be. People forget while religious
scripture may be divinely inspired not divinely written. There is a
major difference. Inspiration simply means that it is the source of the
idea, a dozen painters of the qualify of Michaelango, Rubens, Gonzalez,
Gottlieb, and Picasso could look a picture of a scene in the park and
all would come up with different paintings. Why? Because they each
want to stress something different, and every painting was an
interpretation through the artists eyes and affected by their opinions
and beliefs.

Much of what is called religious scripture was also basic rules for
interaction between individuals, it could better be described as
informal social law. Some was health codes. Still more was fanciful
histories (remember until very very recently the only history you had
was usually only oral (ever play the game of telephone??) or written
only by one side as few peoples had a written language.

3. I believe every religion has at least a few grains of truth. The
problem is digging them out.

4. I accept that if the Christians are correct, in the afterdeath I
will be damned. But I just see their religious writings as another
source, riddled with allegory, morality plays, nationalism, etcetera and
like most containing a few truths.

5. As a parting thought, instead of squabbling and name calling, why do
you not try to actually dig out the truths acting as a team interested
in all souls not just the chosen few.

Natalie E G Holeman
As they say in the movie, Be EXCELLENT to each other.

dwacon

2004-07-10 20:02:39 UTC

Post by Ted
Random chemical interaction cannot explain life.

Random chemical interaction only explains what happens on college campuses
on weekends.

Post by Ted
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE without deliberate intelligent creation.

Many scientists find it hard to be athiest when confronted with what can
only be evidence of God's creative genius in framing this universe.

Post by Ted
2. As to the religious scriptures, there are indeed too many to be able
to decipher which are the most correct. All including the Bible, Torah,
Necromicon, ... contain truths, and all contain opinions and attitudes
of MEN.

My godsister gave me a wise advice: to chew up the meat and spit out the
bone. I am studying "Jesus and Buddha as Brothers" by Thich Hanh and find
that religous scriptures don't necessarily cancel each other out... truth is
evident as truth becomes dominant.

Post by Ted
3. I believe every religion has at least a few grains of truth. The
problem is digging them out.

Is that a problem, or is that a solution?

Post by Ted
4. I accept that if the Christians are correct, in the afterdeath I
will be damned.

Easier to accept salvation.

--
During the Passion of the Christ
there was a NAKED BOY running around...
http://www.cafeshops.com/powerpress

Gwar

2004-07-10 21:26:31 UTC

Post by Ted
Random chemical interaction cannot explain life.

Random chemical interaction only explains what happens on college campuses
on weekends.

Randomness is inconvenient for those who look for absolute certainty.

Post by Ted
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE without deliberate intelligent creation.

Many scientists find it hard to be athiest when confronted with what can
only be evidence of God's creative genius in framing this universe.

Religionists are apt to reduce science, & scientists into a
quasi-religion, & a priesthood respectively.

My godsister gave me a wise advice: to chew up the meat and spit out the
bone.

Wiser advice would be to separate the bone from the meat before you shove
meat in your mouth.

Post by dwacon
I am studying "Jesus and Buddha as Brothers" by Thich Hanh and find that
religous scriptures don't necessarily cancel each other out... truth is
evident as truth becomes dominant.

Truth is not likely to become dominant in a festering pit of suppositions
masquerading as fact.

Post by Ted
4. I accept that if the Christians are correct, in the afterdeath I
will be damned.

Easier to accept salvation.

You can't escape contradictions between people so you better learn on how
to deal with contradictions, rather than indulge in escapism. IOW, you
can't get salvation from conflicts becausee conflict is an inherent aspect
of life. It's really a goddamn shame to allow Christians or any other set
of religionists dictate morality on anybody since religion is so abysmally
infantile.

Pastor Frank

2004-07-18 17:21:46 UTC

Post by Ted
Random chemical interaction cannot explain life.

Random chemical interaction only explains what happens on college campuses
on weekends.

Post by Ted
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE without deliberate intelligent creation.

Many scientists find it hard to be athiest when confronted with what can
only be evidence of God's creative genius in framing this universe.

Post by Ted
3. I believe every religion has at least a few grains of truth. The
problem is digging them out.

Is that a problem, or is that a solution?

Read 'Perennial Philosophy' by Aldous Huxley, a small volume of esoteric
religious principles from numerous belief systems. It represents the view
that increased statistical frequency of principles occurring among different
religions indicates increased validity and relevance.

Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness:

Gwar

2004-07-18 21:17:51 UTC

Post by Pastor Frank
Read 'Perennial Philosophy' by Aldous Huxley, a small volume of esoteric
religious principles from numerous belief systems. It represents the view
that increased statistical frequency of principles occurring among different
religions indicates increased validity and relevance.

There is no great grand wonder that sugar water, no matter where you get
it from, consists of the same 2 characteristic ingredients.

The_Sage

2004-07-10 22:52:07 UTC

Date written: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:29:37 -0500
I am an agnostic. I absolutely believe in the existence of the god[s].
They must exist. Random chemical interaction cannot explain life.

That is resorting to the logical fallacy of circular reasoning: Blaming the
God(s) for starting life is no different than blaming aliens for starting life.
If God(s) exist, how would you explain how they got their start?

The basic processes required for life to exist

Nobody knows what all those basic process are yet, so what follows is BS...

are effectively
impossible, even allowing for a googles of google's of planetary
systems. The odd's against the formation of the single protein convert
a sequence of DNA into the specified protein is 17 raised to the
4,000,000th power (or was it to convert a protein into a DNA strand, it
has been a very long time since I studied biochem and was doing clinical
research, it was one or the other, I do know that, the number even
caused 2 times Nobel Prize winner and confirmed atheist Isaac Asimov to
doubt his atheism). That is just one protein, and their are thousands
each with numbers like that as well as the DNA stands with the coding
for those proteins and they had to all be present in one location such
that they could be enclosed in a lipid shell to be called a living cell.
THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE without deliberate intelligent creation.

There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

We stand on the doorstep of being able to do this process ourselves.
But even allowing some sort of aliens created life of earth (possible,
but I doubt it), you have the question of where did the aliens come
from. Eventually you are force to perform the same analysis as St
Thomas Aquinas. Either life as ALWAYS existed, or it was the creation
of some always existing god[s].

Neither choice is logical or factual.

2. As to the religious scriptures, there are indeed too many to be able
to decipher which are the most correct. All including the Bible, Torah,
Necromicon, ... contain truths, and all contain opinions and attitudes
of MEN. If there is an actual religious scripture that is the work of a
god I do not know what it might be. People forget while religious
scripture may be divinely inspired not divinely written. There is a
major difference. Inspiration simply means that it is the source of the
idea, a dozen painters of the qualify of Michaelango, Rubens, Gonzalez,
Gottlieb, and Picasso could look a picture of a scene in the park and
all would come up with different paintings. Why? Because they each
want to stress something different, and every painting was an
interpretation through the artists eyes and affected by their opinions
and beliefs.

Religious writings are irrelevant as they are mere words. If the Gods were real,
they would exist somewhere other than in a story.

Much of what is called religious scripture was also basic rules for
interaction between individuals, it could better be described as
informal social law. Some was health codes. Still more was fanciful
histories (remember until very very recently the only history you had
was usually only oral (ever play the game of telephone??) or written
only by one side as few peoples had a written language.

Religious writings are poor sources of history and as evidenced by the
extinction of the societies they first existed in, failures at promoting social
cohesiveness.

3. I believe every religion has at least a few grains of truth. The
problem is digging them out.

Why bother digging when you can find the same truths out in the open for free in
the rest of the world?

4. I accept that if the Christians are correct, in the afterdeath I
will be damned.

I don't accept that anymore than I accept that if I was a Jew in Germany, I
would have been sent to Hitler's Ovens in WWII. The story told by the Bible is
morally and ethically unjustifiable.

But I just see their religious writings as another
source, riddled with allegory, morality plays, nationalism, etcetera and
like most containing a few truths.
5. As a parting thought, instead of squabbling and name calling, why do
you not try to actually dig out the truths acting as a team interested
in all souls not just the chosen few.

We are...where have you been?

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Pastor Frank

2004-07-11 10:46:46 UTC

Post by The_Sage
There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

Glad to see you acknowledge God.

Pastor Frank

FRUITS OF THE FLESH VS. FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT
Gal. 5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the
which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they
which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

bluskie

2004-07-11 21:05:01 UTC

Post by The_Sage
There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

Glad to see you acknowledge God.
Pastor Frank

NON SEQUITER! life is random as hell, it takes effort to keep it
organized all the time, the human race is obsessed with organization,
the harder it works at trying to maintain and order the world, the
more evil it becomes, is this what you would consider an act by your
GOD of LOVE?
bombs away...

http://www.lostsoul.net/howards/midi/jarremidis/oxy/oxygene4-2.mid

The_Sage

2004-07-12 02:45:27 UTC

Date written: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:46:46 -0400

Post by The_Sage
There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

Glad to see you acknowledge God.

You know where you will go for lying, don't you?

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Pastor Frank

2004-07-12 09:21:12 UTC

Date written: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:46:46 -0400

Post by The_Sage
There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

Glad to see you acknowledge God.

You know where you will go for lying, don't you?

You tell us that you are "confused as hell" in our exclusively
religious NGs and are obviously looking for a religious answer. Then you
tell us that "there is nothing random about life" at all, which indicates
you are not confused about life, knowing exactly how life came about without
God, but you decline to tell us.
Looks like you are lying to us about being confused and should be
posting to news:alt.origins rather than religious NGs.

Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness:

The_Sage

2004-07-12 23:55:42 UTC

Date written: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:21:12 -0400

Post by The_Sage
There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

Glad to see you acknowledge God.

You know where you will go for lying, don't you?

You tell us that you are "confused as hell" in our exclusively
religious NGsk...

I never ever made that statement. Please learn to pay attention to what you read
first, before posting another irrelevant reply like this.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Pastor Frank

2004-07-13 19:14:52 UTC

Date written: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:21:12 -0400

Post by The_Sage
There is nothing random about life, therefore your statistical odds are
completely irrelevant.

Glad to see you acknowledge God.

You know where you will go for lying, don't you?

You tell us that you are "confused as hell" in our exclusively
religious NGs...

I never ever made that statement. Please learn to pay attention to what you read
first, before posting another irrelevant reply like this.

Look at the subject. "Irrelevant" indeed!!!!!!

Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness:

The_Sage

2004-07-15 04:48:26 UTC

Date written: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:14:52 -0400

Post by Pastor Frank
You tell us that you are "confused as hell" in our exclusively
religious NGs...

I never ever made that statement. Please learn to pay attention to what you read
first, before posting another irrelevant reply like this.

Look at the subject. "Irrelevant" indeed!!!!!!

I did not author that subject line so you can't claim I told you that. Try
another guess...either that or please learn to pay attention to what you read
first, before posting a third irrelevant reply like this.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Pastor Frank

2004-07-16 11:53:47 UTC

Date written: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:14:52 -0400

Post by Pastor Frank
You tell us that you are "confused as hell" in our exclusively
religious NGs...

I never ever made that statement. Please learn to pay attention to what you read
first, before posting another irrelevant reply like this.

Look at the subject. "Irrelevant" indeed!!!!!!

Stop posting irrelevant atheist clap-trap to Christian NGs.

Pastor Frank

SATAN'S MINIONS
Jesus in John 8:44: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of
your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode
not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie,
he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Mt:6:21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Mt:12:34: O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good
things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mt:12:35: A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth
forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth
evil things.
2Pt:3:3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts.

The_Sage

2004-07-18 02:21:27 UTC

Date written: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:53:47 -0400

Post by Pastor Frank
You tell us that you are "confused as hell" in our exclusively
religious NGs...

Stop posting irrelevant atheist clap-trap to Christian NGs.

I never posted irrelevant atheist clap-trap to Christian NGs. Why don't you stop
acting like an idiot?

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"My friend plans to make a fortune with his invention. It's a
big metal box with a slot on one side and a sign that says
'How gullible are you? To find out, insert $50.'" -- COMEDY
COMES CLEAN, by Bill Jones
=============================================================

Gwar

2004-07-04 04:56:52 UTC