Discussion:
Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant
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unknown
2005-06-04 04:24:50 UTC
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-196-1619264,00.html

Courtesy of www.harrylime.biz - more to come to all the rude Christians that crosspost to alt.satanism

Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant
As the Religious Right tries to ban the teaching of evolution in Kansas, Richard Dawkins speaks up for scientific logic






Science feeds on mystery. As my colleague Matt Ridley has put it: "Most scientists are bored by what they have already discovered. It is ignorance that drives them on." Science mines ignorance. Mystery - that which we don't yet know; that which we don't yet understand - is the mother lode that scientists seek out. Mystics exult in mystery and want it to stay mysterious. Scientists exult in mystery for a very different reason: it gives them something to do.

Admissions of ignorance and mystification are vital to good science. It is therefore galling, to say the least, when enemies of science turn those constructive admissions around and abuse them for political advantage. Worse, it threatens the enterprise of science itself. This is exactly the effect that creationism or "intelligent design theory" (ID) is having, especially because its propagandists are slick, superficially plausible and, above all, well financed. ID, by the way, is not a new form of creationism. It simply is creationism disguised, for political reasons, under a new name.

It isn't even safe for a scientist to express temporary doubt as a rhetorical device before going on to dispel it.

"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." You will find this sentence of Charles Darwin quoted again and again by creationists. They never quote what follows. Darwin immediately went on to confound his initial incredulity. Others have built on his foundation, and the eye is today a showpiece of the gradual, cumulative evolution of an almost perfect illusion of design. The relevant chapter of my Climbing Mount Improbable is called "The fortyfold Path to Enlightenment" in honour of the fact that, far from being difficult to evolve, the eye has evolved at least 40 times independently around the animal kingdom.

The distinguished Harvard geneticist Richard Lewontin is widely quoted as saying that organisms "appear to have been carefully and artfully designed". Again, this was a rhetorical preliminary to explaining how the powerful illusion of design actually comes about by natural selection. The isolated quotation strips out the implied emphasis on "appear to", leaving exactly what a simple-mindedly pious audience - in Kansas, for instance - wants to hear.

The deceitful misquoting of scientists to suit an anti-scientific agenda ranks among the many unchristian habits of fundamentalist authors. But such Telling Lies for God (the book title of the splendidly pugnacious Australian geologist Ian Plimer) is not the most serious problem. There is a more important point to be made, and it goes right to the philosophical heart of creationism.

The standard methodology of creationists is to find some phenomenon in nature which Darwinism cannot readily explain. Darwin said: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Creationists mine ignorance and uncertainty in order to abuse his challenge. "Bet you can't tell me how the elbow joint of the lesser spotted weasel frog evolved by slow gradual degrees?" If the scientist fails to give an immediate and comprehensive answer, a default conclusion is drawn: "Right, then, the alternative theory; 'intelligent design' wins by default."

Notice the biased logic: if theory A fails in some particular, theory B must be right! Notice, too, how the creationist ploy undermines the scientist's rejoicing in uncertainty. Today's scientist in America dare not say: "Hm, interesting point. I wonder how the weasel frog's ancestors did evolve their elbow joint. I'll have to go to the university library and take a look." No, the moment a scientist said something like that the default conclusion would become a headline in a creationist pamphlet: "Weasel frog could only have been designed by God."

I once introduced a chapter on the so-called Cambrian Explosion with the words: "It is as though the fossils were planted there without any evolutionary history." Again, this was a rhetorical overture, intended to whet the reader's appetite for the explanation. Inevitably, my remark was gleefully quoted out of context. Creationists adore "gaps" in the fossil record.

Many evolutionary transitions are elegantly documented by more or less continuous series of changing intermediate fossils. Some are not, and these are the famous "gaps". Michael Shermer has wittily pointed out that if a new fossil discovery neatly bisects a "gap", the creationist will declare that there are now two gaps! Note yet again the use of a default. If there are no fossils to document a postulated evolutionary transition, the assumption is that there was no evolutionary transition: God must have intervened.

The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift to Kansas.


Richard Dawkins, FRS, is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science, at Oxford University. His latest book is The Ancestor's Tale
Midjis
2005-06-04 11:55:26 UTC
Permalink
That was... wide.

Was it just my newsreader?
Barry Trotter
2005-06-04 14:07:03 UTC
Permalink
In the great debate about "Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant"
in alt.christian.religion, "Harry Lime" <harrylime (at) harrylime
Post by unknown
The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift to Kansas.
I hope Dawkins doesn't mind me using that quote. I need to print some
new T-shirts now it's summer.

David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
Carl Rooker
2005-06-04 15:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant"
in alt.christian.religion, "Harry Lime" <harrylime (at) harrylime
Post by unknown
The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a
metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default,
are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You
don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is
photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to
work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't
work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't
squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift
to Kansas.
Post by Barry Trotter
I hope Dawkins doesn't mind me using that quote. I need to print some
new T-shirts now it's summer.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
Just more misrepresentation to fill certain persons own ignorance.

A fundamental point of the Christian Faith is that the universe (aka
Creation) is orderly, and that it is possible to research, and understand
it.
PR 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter;

to search out a matter is the glory of kings. NIV

There is not a problem with Christianity and Science. The problem only
comes from a few loud mouths who incorrectly hide behind science to push
their "naturalistic" philosophy. This thread is a very good example of such
nonsense.

For some, no misrepresentation is too small, trivial, or silly to use.

God Bless
Carl
Barry Trotter
2005-06-04 16:43:08 UTC
Permalink
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by Carl Rooker
he problem only
comes from a few loud mouths who incorrectly hide behind science to push
their "naturalistic" philosophy.
ROTFLMAO.


David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
Barry Trotter
2005-06-04 16:50:27 UTC
Permalink
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by Carl Rooker
Just more misrepresentation to fill certain persons own ignorance.
A fundamental point of the Christian Faith is that the universe (aka
Creation) is orderly, and that it is possible to research, and understand
it.
Where did you get that lie from? the back of a cereal packet? How come
thoise who have researched and understood it know it isn't as orderly
as the theists like to pretend it is?

The fundamental point of any faith is to avoid dealing with the truth.
That's the meaning of the word 'belief'. It is the poorest form of
thought and therefore the least justifiable.

David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
alen
2005-06-05 13:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
The fundamental point of any faith is to avoid dealing with the truth.
That's the meaning of the word 'belief'.
No, it isn't. Faith seeks truths that are
not accessible to proofs.
Post by Barry Trotter
It is the poorest form of
thought and therefore the least justifiable.
It is less certain than science, but goes where
science cannot go.

But for particular believers who receive evidence
inwardly, faith can become as certain as science
is for them. And I don't have to prove that in
order to have the right to assert it.

Alen
Barry Trotter
2005-06-05 16:05:06 UTC
Permalink
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
The fundamental point of any faith is to avoid dealing with the truth.
That's the meaning of the word 'belief'.
No, it isn't. Faith seeks truths that are
not accessible to proofs.
And are therefore false.
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
It is the poorest form of
thought and therefore the least justifiable.
It is less certain than science, but goes where
science cannot go.
Because it is false.
Post by alen
But for particular believers who receive evidence
inwardly,
You misspelled 'are deluded'.
Post by alen
faith can become as certain as science
is for them.
Visited a locked hospital ward lately? 'Reality', for some of the
people in there is pretty grotesque and, guess what, it isn't reality.
One of the most dangerous fallacies is that something is correct
merely because people believe it. People die because other people
believe that.
Post by alen
And I don't have to prove that in
order to have the right to assert it.
How convenient.


David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
alen
2005-06-06 13:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
The fundamental point of any faith is to avoid dealing with the truth.
That's the meaning of the word 'belief'.
No, it isn't. Faith seeks truths that are
not accessible to proofs.
And are therefore false.
Then all scientific hypotheses are therefore
also false
Post by Barry Trotter
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
It is the poorest form of
thought and therefore the least justifiable.
It is less certain than science, but goes where
science cannot go.
Because it is false.
If so, then science itself is also false.
Post by Barry Trotter
Post by alen
faith can become as certain as science
is for them.
Visited a locked hospital ward lately? 'Reality', for some of the
people in there is pretty grotesque and, guess what, it isn't reality.
One of the most dangerous fallacies is that something is correct
merely because people believe it. People die because other people
believe that.
So what. Surgery, for example, can endanger life
but can also save life. Many things can be dangerous.

Alen
Carl Rooker
2005-06-07 14:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by Carl Rooker
Just more misrepresentation to fill certain persons own ignorance.
A fundamental point of the Christian Faith is that the universe (aka
Creation) is orderly, and that it is possible to research, and understand
it.
Where did you get that lie from? the back of a cereal packet? How come
thoise who have researched and understood it know it isn't as orderly
as the theists like to pretend it is?
The fundamental point of any faith is to avoid dealing with the truth.
That's the meaning of the word 'belief'. It is the poorest form of
thought and therefore the least justifiable.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
Just another lie from those who oppose God.

God Bless
Carl
Barry Trotter
2005-06-04 16:51:11 UTC
Permalink
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by Carl Rooker
There is not a problem with Christianity and Science.
You obviously flunked history completely.

David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
Carl Rooker
2005-06-07 14:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by Carl Rooker
There is not a problem with Christianity and Science.
You obviously flunked history completely.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
And, you flunked English, since you took what I said out of context, and
misrepresented it.

I said;

"There is not a problem with Christianity and Science. The problem only
comes from a few loud mouths who incorrectly hide behind science to push
their "naturalistic" philosophy. This thread is a very good example of such
nonsense."

But, like the others in this group that can not deal truthfully, you can not
even truthfully answer my statement. Instead you partially quote it, and
ignore what was actually said.

God Bless
Carl
alen
2005-06-05 13:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant"
in alt.christian.religion, "Harry Lime" <harrylime (at) harrylime
Post by unknown
The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift to Kansas.
I hope Dawkins doesn't mind me using that quote. I need to print some
new T-shirts now it's summer.
That looks to me like an atheistic attempt
to blame believers for daring to know that
science, which atheists often rely on for
their arguments, is severely limited in its
achievements.

Alen
Barry Trotter
2005-06-05 16:06:22 UTC
Permalink
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant"
in alt.christian.religion, "Harry Lime" <harrylime (at) harrylime
Post by unknown
The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift to Kansas.
I hope Dawkins doesn't mind me using that quote. I need to print some
new T-shirts now it's summer.
That looks to me like an atheistic attempt
to blame believers for daring to know that
science, which atheists often rely on for
their arguments, is severely limited in its
achievements.
Alen
Believers believe. By definition they know nothing.

David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
alen
2005-06-06 13:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
Post by alen
That looks to me like an atheistic attempt
to blame believers for daring to know that
science, which atheists often rely on for
their arguments, is severely limited in its
achievements.
Alen
Believers believe. By definition they know nothing.
By definition, therefore, a believer can't see
a video screen, or type a message like this into
an NG, etc.

Alen
Carl Rooker
2005-06-07 14:11:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Re: Creationism Is God's Gift to The
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
In the great debate about "Creationism Is God's Gift to The Ignorant"
in alt.christian.religion, "Harry Lime" <harrylime (at) harrylime
Post by unknown
The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a
metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default,
are filled by God. You don't know how the nerve impulse works? Good! You
don't understand how memories are laid down in the brain? Excellent! Is
photosynthesis a bafflingly complex process? Wonderful! Please don't go to
work on the problem, just give up, and appeal to God. Dear scientist, don't
work on your mysteries. Bring us your mysteries for we can use them. Don't
squander precious ignorance by researching it away. Ignorance is God's gift
to Kansas.
Post by Barry Trotter
Post by alen
Post by Barry Trotter
I hope Dawkins doesn't mind me using that quote. I need to print some
new T-shirts now it's summer.
That looks to me like an atheistic attempt
to blame believers for daring to know that
science, which atheists often rely on for
their arguments, is severely limited in its
achievements.
Alen
Believers believe. By definition they know nothing.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
By your invalid definition then you do not know that by turning on a light
switch will turn on the lights.
By your invalid definition, nothing can be known.
Your definition of belief is the result of faulty thinking, with a dishonest
preposition.

God bless
Carl

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