Intelligent Designer!

[wmech]

Christian's favorite evidence for the existence of their god is the old
canard that the Universe could not just happen but had to have a
designer/creator. If it was designed/created by some god, this god has to be
even more complex than the Universe, and using this same logic, would
require that god would also have to have a creator. Who or what created god?

Many religious types claim the Intelligent Design of the Universe is proof
of god.

Intelligent design!? Consider reality. The Universe shows no evidence of
intelligent design!

Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
cancers and hundreds
of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age?

World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

World II claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all religious faiths
indiscriminately, plus a vast destruction of property and millions maimed
for life.

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed 270,000 lives; men, women and totally
innocent children of all religious persuasions.

There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally
innocent children.

The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men women and innocent
children indiscriminately.

These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious
persuasions.

Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need
to kill and eat other animals to survive?

It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be a cruel,
heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think, if we kiss his
ring, he will let us enjoy peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

The Christian god belief is about as credible as belief in the Wizard of Oz.

This is understandable because the Earth is but a speck of dust in the vast
Universe that is over 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in diameter.

The objective evidence is that god did not create man but that man created
gods.



--
Bill

[truthseeker]

Be careful, you may be showing something about yourself you do not want
seen.

As a scientifically oriented person I can point out some interesting
facts about the universe and our world which could point to a very wise
Creator.

1. The precession of the earth's axis relative to the sun (roughly 23
degrees) prevents the sun side from becoming too hot to be bearable, or
the dark side from becoming too cold, In fact, we would not have the
four seasons were it not for this fact.

2.The magnetosphere of earth helps minimize meteorite collisions on its
surface,
which would threaten all life.

3. The ozone layer in the upper atmosphere shields the earth from
otherwise deadly ultraviolet radiation which would destroy life on this
planet.

Allow me to offer this advice about the "Christian God" you mention.
Actually, He is the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob,
Moses, David and Jesus (who was an Orthodox Jew BTW)

[wmech]

Post by truthseeker
Be careful, you may be showing something about yourself you do not want
seen.
As a scientifically oriented person I can point out some interesting
facts about the universe and our world which could point to a very wise
Creator.
1. The precession of the earth's axis relative to the sun (roughly 23
degrees) prevents the sun side from becoming too hot to be bearable, or
the dark side from becoming too cold, In fact, we would not have the
four seasons were it not for this fact.
2.The magnetosphere of earth helps minimize meteorite collisions on its
surface,
which would threaten all life.
3. The ozone layer in the upper atmosphere shields the earth from
otherwise deadly ultraviolet radiation which would destroy life on this
planet.

Non of this is ANY evidence of a creator. It is just astrological data -
pure and simple1

Post by truthseeker
Allow me to offer this advice about the "Christian God" you mention.
Actually, He is the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob,
Moses, David and Jesus (who was an Orthodox Jew BTW)

[truthseeker]

wmech,

I hardly scratched the surface, but just gave examples from the top of
my head. There are thousands of strange phenomena
that cannot be explained by our logic or limited understanding.

You seem to have a closed mind because you reject anything offered
without consideration.

It reminds me of the time in the late nineteenth century when Thomas
Edison predicted that one day an entire city
would be lit up by electrical means only.

A consortium of British scientists considered the issue based on the
scientific theories of the day and concluded
that it would be impossible to illuminate a city by the use of
electricity.

[Carl Rooker]

Post by truthseeker
wmech,
I hardly scratched the surface, but just gave examples from the top of
my head. There are thousands of strange phenomena
that cannot be explained by our logic or limited understanding.
You seem to have a closed mind because you reject anything offered
without consideration.
It reminds me of the time in the late nineteenth century when Thomas
Edison predicted that one day an entire city
would be lit up by electrical means only.
A consortium of British scientists considered the issue based on the
scientific theories of the day and concluded
that it would be impossible to illuminate a city by the use of
electricity.

Truthseeker;

wmech is not interested in facts or evidence. He merely misstates the case
to draw other into an argument.

Notice he blames our Creator for creating disasters, but has no
consideration that most of these things are the direct result of man's
actions. Like war and starvation, the spread of disease (through unclean
sanitary conditions).

He ignores the order of Creation that keeps most of us alive and healthy,
while it is man's own evil that pollutes, destroys, takes advantage of
others, robs, and kills.
He then blames the Creator for man's evil to man.

There is no logical argument that such a mind would consider.

However, please do add more such evidence to your post. Others may benefit.

God Bless
Carl

[Pastor Frank]

Post by Carl Rooker

Post by truthseeker
I hardly scratched the surface, but just gave examples from the top of
my head. There are thousands of strange phenomena
that cannot be explained by our logic or limited understanding.
You seem to have a closed mind because you reject anything offered
without consideration.
It reminds me of the time in the late nineteenth century when Thomas
Edison predicted that one day an entire city
would be lit up by electrical means only.
A consortium of British scientists considered the issue based on the
scientific theories of the day and concluded
that it would be impossible to illuminate a city by the use of
electricity.

Truthseeker;
wmech is not interested in facts or evidence. He merely misstates the case
to draw other into an argument.
Notice he blames our Creator for creating disasters, but has no
consideration that most of these things are the direct result of man's
actions. Like war and starvation, the spread of disease (through unclean
sanitary conditions).
He ignores the order of Creation that keeps most of us alive and healthy,
while it is man's own evil that pollutes, destroys, takes advantage of
others, robs, and kills.
He then blames the Creator for man's evil to man.
There is no logical argument that such a mind would consider.
However, please do add more such evidence to your post. Others may benefit.
God Bless
Carl

When I was a newbe in these Christian NGs, I got involved in a long
discussion about proof of God, and nothing I said seemed to be acceptable
nor make any difference to the atheist poster. In the end I asked him what
he would accept as proof, and he said: I want God to appear as a giant
talking face in the sky. So there you have it.
That's why we can safely tell atheists, that we fully agree with them,
because the god of their definition and expectation does indeed not exist.

Pastor Frank

"GOD" The Christian meaning of the word according to scripture:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank
When I was a newbe in these Christian NGs, I got involved in a long
discussion about proof of God, and nothing I said seemed to be acceptable
nor make any difference to the atheist poster. In the end I asked him what
he would accept as proof, and he said: I want God to appear as a giant
talking face in the sky. So there you have it.
That's why we can safely tell atheists, that we fully agree with them,
because the god of their definition and expectation does indeed not exist.

There will never be any proof of God sufficient to convince a non-believer,
just as there can never be any argument advanced that would sway a believer
from their belief. Only one's own experience can truly make one believe or
not.

[wmech]

Post by Carl Rooker

Post by truthseeker
wmech,
I hardly scratched the surface, but just gave examples from the top of
my head. There are thousands of strange phenomena
that cannot be explained by our logic or limited understanding.
You seem to have a closed mind because you reject anything offered
without consideration.
It reminds me of the time in the late nineteenth century when Thomas
Edison predicted that one day an entire city
would be lit up by electrical means only.
A consortium of British scientists considered the issue based on the
scientific theories of the day and concluded
that it would be impossible to illuminate a city by the use of
electricity.

Truthseeker;
wmech is not interested in facts or evidence. He merely misstates the case
to draw other into an argument.
Notice he blames our Creator for creating disasters, but has no
consideration that most of these things are the direct result of man's
actions. Like war and starvation, the spread of disease (through unclean
sanitary conditions).
He ignores the order of Creation that keeps most of us alive and healthy,
while it is man's own evil that pollutes, destroys, takes advantage of
others, robs, and kills.
He then blames the Creator for man's evil to man.

You quite obviouslly don't read perceptively. Or do you just read
selectively
just to support your obviously illogical arguments?

Tsunamis, earth quakes, cyclones, hurricans and plaques are natural
phenomina - not creations of man.

Post by Carl Rooker
There is no logical argument that such a mind would consider.
However, please do add more such evidence to your post. Others may benefit.
God Bless
Carl

[The_Sage]

Date written: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:16:31 -0400
Truthseeker;
wmech is not interested in facts or evidence. He merely misstates the case
to draw other into an argument.

I see that in your case, it worked.

Notice he blames our Creator for creating disasters, but has no
consideration that most of these things are the direct result of man's
actions. Like war and starvation, the spread of disease (through unclean
sanitary conditions).
He ignores the order of Creation that keeps most of us alive and healthy,
while it is man's own evil that pollutes, destroys, takes advantage of
others, robs, and kills.
He then blames the Creator for man's evil to man.
There is no logical argument that such a mind would consider.
However, please do add more such evidence to your post. Others may benefit.

Here, let me give Truthhunter a head start for you:

The Bible admits that your Creator does create disasters, wars, starvation, and
the spread of disease:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the
LORD do all these [things]." (Isaiah 45:7)

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them
not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and
ass." (I Sam 15:3)

Etc, etc, and etc.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"Toward no crimes have men shown themselves so cold-bloodedly
cruel as in punishing differences in belief"
-- James Russell Lowell
=============================================================

[Midjis]

Post by The_Sage
The Bible admits that your Creator does create disasters, wars,
I the LORD do all these [things]." (Isaiah 45:7)

Yes, but this isn't the same God. This is the Old Testament God, who was
one of many, and had weaknesses and character flaws.

Not until later was it decided that He was solitary, and it was approaching
New Testament days before it was decided that He would be all good and
incapable of evil - at which point of course an Adversary was required to
oppose Him and account for the evil that had previously been considered
God's 'dark side'.

[Midjis]

Post by truthseeker
As a scientifically oriented person I can point out some interesting
facts about the universe and our world which could point to a very wise
Creator.
1. The precession of the earth's axis relative to the sun (roughly 23
degrees) prevents the sun side from becoming too hot to be bearable, or
the dark side from becoming too cold, In fact, we would not have the
four seasons were it not for this fact.

Anthropic Principle. These conditions can be logically explained as a
function of probability - there was a chance, however large or small, that
these conditions could occur naturally. ONLY if these conditions occurred
would the human species have evolved as it has - and therefore it is not
surprising that conditions are perfect for our evolution: if they were
different, we would not be here to wonder why. Thus, the existence of such
favourable conditions cannot be cited as evidence of a creator.

As a 'scientifically oriented person', you will also know that there are in
fact only TWO seasons: summer and winter. One occurs when the Sun tracks
towards the Tropic of Cancer, the other as it shifts towards the Tropic of
Capricorn. The equator divides the two. Spring and Autumn are devices of
human design.

Post by truthseeker
2.The magnetosphere of earth helps minimize meteorite collisions on its
surface, which would threaten all life.

Many factors help to shield the Earth from meteorite collisions. Primarily
the presence of a dense atmosphere. Don't kid yourself that meteors don't
approach us: look into the sky on any clear night and you'll see the flares
as passing rocks burn up in the atmosphere. Most small-scale meteors are
destroyed long before they hit the ground. If you believe that that's the
sign of a God looking after you, then so be it. But bear in mind that the
same mechanism allows you to breathe. Once again, if the atmosphere wasn't
there, and shielding you from these bullets from above, you wouldn't be here
to wonder at it.

Additionally, it's worth considering that, while of course many strict
believers deny the existence of any dominant species on Earth prior to Man,
just one of those bullets about 65m years ago managed to wipe out a
significant proportion of life on Earth and blast a hole in the planet so
big it can still be seen today. I would hate for a repeat performance and
the devastation it would wreak to be the only thing that will convince
believers like you that God won't always protect us from rogue asteroids.
So far we've just been lucky.

Post by truthseeker
3. The ozone layer in the upper atmosphere shields the earth from
otherwise deadly ultraviolet radiation which would destroy life on this
planet.

Indeed. And again, without the natural occurrence of that layer, we would
not have appeared here to remark on the unlikelihood of it. Besides, we
don't really know how unlikely it is. We'll only really get an idea about
that when we get out there and do some looking around.

Post by truthseeker
Allow me to offer this advice about the "Christian God" you mention.
Actually, He is the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob,
Moses, David and Jesus (who was an Orthodox Jew BTW)

He's the God of the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews. But they're too
busy scrapping with each about who knows Him best.

[truthseeker]

Midjis,

Do you discount the Spring and Autumn equinox phenomena as indicators
of the third and fourth seasons?

[Midjis]

Post by truthseeker
Do you discount the Spring and Autumn equinox phenomena as indicators
of the third and fourth seasons?

Yes. Spring and Autumn are a convention, nothing more. I would guess their
use derives from the agricultural calendars - but there are no distinct
astronomical processes that distinguish these periods. The Vernal Equinox
denotes the point at which the Sun crosses the line of 0° declination - the
celestial equator - heading towards the observer (south in the southern
hemisphere, north in the northern). The Autumnal Equinox is the point at
which the Sun crosses the celestial equator heading away from the observer.

They are 'phenomena' only in the loosest sense of the word - they are simply
a product of the motion of the solar system. In real terms they represent
the point at which day and night are the same length, and they mark the
transition between summer and winter.

[i***@earthlink.net]

Post by Midjis

Post by truthseeker
As a scientifically oriented person I can point out some

interesting

Post by Midjis

Post by truthseeker
facts about the universe and our world which could point to a very wise
Creator.
1. The precession of the earth's axis relative to the sun (roughly 23
degrees) prevents the sun side from becoming too hot to be

bearable, or

Post by Midjis

Post by truthseeker
the dark side from becoming too cold, In fact, we would not have the
four seasons were it not for this fact.

Anthropic Principle. These conditions can be logically explained as a
function of probability - there was a chance, however large or small, that
these conditions could occur naturally.

.


Ugh... that's just one interpretation. If you are held to the
empiricism of the observed universe, then the probabilities are 1, and
there is no chance to it. In this light the Anthropic principle
indicates that the universe is fine tuned for life and either view
includes the existence of many precarious and unlikely cosmic balances
that make the odds that "these conditions could occur *randomly*...
less probable by orders of magnitude.

I substituded "randomly" for "naturally" becuase the constants of the
universe may very well be "set-up" to bring life into existence as a
key player in the universal thermodynamic game, and there is nothing
un-natural about that.

I don't say that for no good reason, I have substantial proof that says
a lot about the anthropic principle... but nothing at all about god.


.

Post by Midjis
ONLY if these conditions occurred
would the human species have evolved as it has - and therefore it is not
surprising that conditions are perfect for our evolution: if they were
different, we would not be here to wonder why. Thus, the existence of such
favourable conditions cannot be cited as evidence of a creator.
As a 'scientifically oriented person', you will also know that there are in
fact only TWO seasons: summer and winter. One occurs when the Sun tracks
towards the Tropic of Cancer, the other as it shifts towards the Tropic of
Capricorn. The equator divides the two. Spring and Autumn are devices of
human design.

Post by truthseeker
2.The magnetosphere of earth helps minimize meteorite collisions on its
surface, which would threaten all life.

Many factors help to shield the Earth from meteorite collisions.

Primarily

Post by Midjis
the presence of a dense atmosphere. Don't kid yourself that meteors don't
approach us: look into the sky on any clear night and you'll see the flares
as passing rocks burn up in the atmosphere. Most small-scale meteors are
destroyed long before they hit the ground. If you believe that that's the
sign of a God looking after you, then so be it. But bear in mind that the
same mechanism allows you to breathe. Once again, if the atmosphere wasn't
there, and shielding you from these bullets from above, you wouldn't be here
to wonder at it.
Additionally, it's worth considering that, while of course many strict
believers deny the existence of any dominant species on Earth prior to Man,
just one of those bullets about 65m years ago managed to wipe out a
significant proportion of life on Earth and blast a hole in the planet so
big it can still be seen today. I would hate for a repeat

performance and

Post by Midjis
the devastation it would wreak to be the only thing that will

convince

Post by Midjis
believers like you that God won't always protect us from rogue

asteroids.
.

.

Post by Midjis
So far we've just been lucky.

.

Not if my previous statement is true because it means that we are
necessary integral contributors to the thermodynamic process at this
time in the history of our universe, so we are enabled to survive by a
"friendly" environment in many ways that have not even been toched on
here. For example the energy that we can expend in the direction of
survival must necessarily also enable us to continue to increase the
entropy of the universe or the open complex system cannot maintain a
balance with the growing entropy debt that comes with expansion.

Post by Midjis

Post by truthseeker
3. The ozone layer in the upper atmosphere shields the earth from
otherwise deadly ultraviolet radiation which would destroy life on this
planet.

Indeed. And again, without the natural occurrence of that layer, we would
not have appeared here to remark on the unlikelihood of it. Besides, we
don't really know how unlikely it is. We'll only really get an idea about
that when we get out there and do some looking around.

Post by truthseeker
Allow me to offer this advice about the "Christian God" you

mention.

Post by Midjis

Post by truthseeker
Actually, He is the Judeo-Christian God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob,
Moses, David and Jesus (who was an Orthodox Jew BTW)

He's the God of the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews. But

they're too

Post by Midjis
busy scrapping with each about who knows Him best.

[Dean]

I am that I am. No one can understand. You can not understand string
theory or time. Does time exist? See you can't understand this. There is
no way you will understand God!

Post by wmech
Christian's favorite evidence for the existence of their god is the old
canard that the Universe could not just happen but had to have a
designer/creator. If it was designed/created by some god, this god has to be
even more complex than the Universe, and using this same logic, would
require that god would also have to have a creator. Who or what created god?
Many religious types claim the Intelligent Design of the Universe is proof
of god.
Intelligent design!? Consider reality. The Universe shows no evidence of
intelligent design!
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
cancers and hundreds
of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all religious faiths
indiscriminately, plus a vast destruction of property and millions maimed
for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed 270,000 lives; men, women and totally
innocent children of all religious persuasions.
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally
innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men women and innocent
children indiscriminately.
These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious
persuasions.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need
to kill and eat other animals to survive?
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be a cruel,
heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.
If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think, if we kiss his
ring, he will let us enjoy peace in his eternal Heaven after death?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The Christian god belief is about as credible as belief in the Wizard of Oz.
This is understandable because the Earth is but a speck of dust in the vast
Universe that is over 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in diameter.
The objective evidence is that god did not create man but that man created
gods.
--
Bill

[wmech]

You come across as some what confused. What specifically in my post do you
disagree with and why?

My post has nothing to do with String Theory or Time Theory. It just
contains some common down to earth facts.
Deal with it.

--
Bill

Post by Dean
I am that I am. No one can understand. You can not understand string
theory or time. Does time exist? See you can't understand this. There is
no way you will understand God!

Post by wmech
Christian's favorite evidence for the existence of their god is the old
canard that the Universe could not just happen but had to have a
designer/creator. If it was designed/created by some god, this god has

to

Post by Dean

Post by wmech
be
even more complex than the Universe, and using this same logic, would
require that god would also have to have a creator. Who or what created god?
Many religious types claim the Intelligent Design of the Universe is proof
of god.
Intelligent design!? Consider reality. The Universe shows no evidence of
intelligent design!
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
cancers and hundreds
of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all religious faiths
indiscriminately, plus a vast destruction of property and millions maimed
for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed 270,000 lives; men, women and totally
innocent children of all religious persuasions.
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally
innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men women and innocent
children indiscriminately.
These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious
persuasions.
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need
to kill and eat other animals to survive?
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be a cruel,
heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.
If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think, if we kiss his
ring, he will let us enjoy peace in his eternal Heaven after death?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The Christian god belief is about as credible as belief in the Wizard of Oz.
This is understandable because the Earth is but a speck of dust in the vast
Universe that is over 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in diameter.
The objective evidence is that god did not create man but that man created
gods.
--
Bill

[alen]

Post by wmech
Christian's favorite evidence for the existence of their god is the old
canard that the Universe could not just happen but had to have a
designer/creator. If it was designed/created by some god, this god has to be
even more complex than the Universe, and using this same logic, would
require that god would also have to have a creator. Who or what created god?

The question of whether or not the creation appears
to require an intelligent designer is a question in
itself. Questions as to whether such a designer also
came into being or not, and what such a being must be
like etc. are subsequent and independent questions.
They are legitimate, but the first question is
nevertheless independent of them and doesn't depend on
them.

Post by wmech
Many religious types claim the Intelligent Design of the Universe is proof
of god.
Intelligent design!? Consider reality. The Universe shows no evidence of
intelligent design!

Would you say that an internal combustion
engine manifests intelligent design on the
part of human beings? If so, I would say
that the structure and functioning of the
eye of a human or animal, as one example,
must also be considered a manifestation
of intelligent design.

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
cancers and hundreds
of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

[...]

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need
to kill and eat other animals to survive?
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be a cruel,
heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

That is how you want to portray it, but that
doesn't mean that no answer can be suggested.
This argument is constantly thrown around, in
the prejudiced hope, in my view, that it is
too difficult for anyone to even try to answer.

I can try to answer, but do you really want an
answer that contradicts your hostile assertion?
Can you see no possible answer, or would you
rather not try, or are you merely spiritually
lazy, or just want to discredit God and
Christians, or what? Why should I think that
you would even take the trouble to follow the
complexities of the scenario that any attempt
at an answer requires?

People are always using the difficulty this
argument provides in order to throw cheap shots
at God and Christians.

Post by wmech
If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think, if we kiss his
ring, he will let us enjoy peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

Where did you get the 'kiss his ring' fantasy from?

Post by wmech
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

[...]

Post by wmech
--
Bill

The only thing obvious and objectively proven
is that your assertions are your own opinion

Alen

[z***@hotmail.com]

Post by wmech
Christian's favorite evidence for the existence of their god is the old
canard that the Universe could not just happen but had to have a
designer/creator. If it was designed/created by some god, this god has to be
even more complex than the Universe, and using this same logic, would
require that god would also have to have a creator. Who or what created god?

*** Good question, and you'll have your chance to ask Him! ***

Post by wmech
Many religious types claim the Intelligent Design of the Universe is proof
of god.
Intelligent design!? Consider reality. The Universe shows no evidence of
intelligent design!

*** Ya, that Einstein was an idiot. ***

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
cancers and hundreds
of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

*** Actually, that's man's doing! ***

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent children
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully

developed

Post by wmech
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age?

*** Most of what you list can be attributed to repercussions of what
prior generations have done to both their own bodies and our
environment, case in point, syphilis can cause blindness three and four
generations later. ***

Post by wmech
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all religious faiths
indiscriminately, plus a vast destruction of property and millions maimed
for life.

*** God told them to go to war right? ***

Post by wmech
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed 270,000 lives; men, women and totally
innocent children of all religious persuasions.

*** Innocent idol worshipping pagans? That's not fair though, how about
"time and chance happen to all men.", or the fact that God has set in
motion a planet with it's own variables and man keeps screwing with it.
***

Post by wmech
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally
innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men women and innocent
children indiscriminately.
These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all

religious

Post by wmech
persuasions.

*** All as a result of man's ignorance and refusal to keep God laws of
cleanliness. During the "Black Death" hundreds of Jews were put to
death because people believed they were in league with Satan because
they weren't contracting the plague as were the so-called Christians.
The Jews kept God's laws> ***

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need
to kill and eat other animals to survive?

*** Speak for yourself, I am not an animal! ***

Post by wmech
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be a cruel,
heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.
If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think, if we kiss his
ring, he will let us enjoy peace in his eternal Heaven after death?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

*** Correct! What He does care about is whether or not His children
will live for eternity without turning from His ways the way Satan did.
We've been allotted this time to learn that our way only leads to
death! ***

Post by wmech
The Christian god belief is about as credible as belief in the Wizard of Oz.
This is understandable because the Earth is but a speck of dust in the vast
Universe that is over 20 BILLION LIGHT YEARS in diameter.
The objective evidence is that god did not create man but that man created
gods.

*** I afraid you wouldn't know objective evidence if it fell on your
head. ***

Post by wmech
--
Bill

[SS]

Post by wmech
The objective evidence is that god did not create man but that
man created gods.

Bill

Precisely, my dear chap. That's just about in line with my own thinking. God
did not create man in his image - man created god in his image instead.

Also I do think that, the existence or non-existence of an intelligent
designer notwithstanding, intelligence did evolve on earth. The fact that we
are communicating right now is the proof. And who really knows - maybe
intelligence has evolved elsewhere in the cosmos too.

My tuppenceworth.

:-)

SS

[ZenIsWhen]

Post by wmech
Christian's favorite evidence for the existence of their god is the old
canard that the Universe could not just happen but had to have a
designer/creator.

That is not "evidence"; it is merely a claim based simply on the same
ignorance that claimed god made thunder, and lived atop the nearest high
mountain.

[The Magic Rat]

I think those are fair questions. I wonder them as well.

I'm an agnostic who believes that if God does exist, It cannot possibly
be all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful proposed by the
Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion. If this were the case, then how could
one explain the purpose of a small child being tortured/murdered? How
could one explain the terrible diseases you mentioned?

If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, then how could he
allow terribly evil things to happen to the innocents (unless our
conception of "good" is incorrect). Seemingly, one of the three
elements would have to be missing.

I would posit that God cannot be all-powerful because I have free will,
I think (let's not make this a determinism argument!). At least,
that's my hope. I'd prefer to keep God all-good and all-knowing.

An all-powerful, all-knowing, not-all-good God is pretty scary...

[The Magic Rat]

And of course, God could be neither all-powerful, nor all-knowing, nor
all-good. But that's not what we're talking about.

My question would be: Is it logically possible for God to be
all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good? I would say, based on the
happenings on this earth, the answer is emphatically, "No," because of
what I typed above.

[truthseeker]

Think about it. If you believe in the possibility of there being a
"God". that is
a divine, transcendent, supreme or supernatural being, then why do you
feel that you can decide what attributes this being should have?

You being mortal, limited, and earthbound, and subject to the
vicissitudes of life and nature are like the tail wagging the dog.

[z***@hotmail.com]

Post by truthseeker
Think about it. If you believe in the possibility of there being a
"God". that is
a divine, transcendent, supreme or supernatural being, then why do you
feel that you can decide what attributes this being should have?
You being mortal, limited, and earthbound, and subject to the
vicissitudes of life and nature are like the tail wagging the dog.

*** Why do you think He gave us the Bible? So we could know what He
expects! Oh, I'm sorry, it occures to me you don't understand or
believe the Bible, how foolish of me. ***

[Carl Rooker]

Post by The Magic Rat
I think those are fair questions. I wonder them as well.
I'm an agnostic who believes that if God does exist, It cannot possibly
be all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful proposed by the
Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion. If this were the case, then how could
one explain the purpose of a small child being tortured/murdered? How
could one explain the terrible diseases you mentioned?
If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, then how could he
allow terribly evil things to happen to the innocents (unless our
conception of "good" is incorrect). Seemingly, one of the three
elements would have to be missing.
I would posit that God cannot be all-powerful because I have free will,
I think (let's not make this a determinism argument!). At least,
that's my hope. I'd prefer to keep God all-good and all-knowing.
An all-powerful, all-knowing, not-all-good God is pretty scary...

What does your free will have to do with whether God is all knowing, all
powerful, and all good?

Your argument is based on one flaw. It blames God for the problems we have
caused ourselves by exercising our free will. As in the example given of a
child being tortured, there is no good purpose in this. But it is a human
torturing that child, not God.

If the Bible is correct (and I believe it is), then we as a species has
turned our collective back on God. That is why there is evil on this earth.
So men of free will oppress others. They torture, steal, kill, spread
disease, lie, cheat, ignore compassion, etc. As a species, this was our
choice.

Now, just because we have exercised our free will, does not mean that God is
not all powerful. It means that He allows us to go our own way, and we reap
what we have sown.

In His compassion He will not allow this to go on forever. But let us stop
blaming Him for our misfortunes, caused by our misdeeds.

God Bless
Carl

[Dean]

Post by Carl Rooker

Post by The Magic Rat
I think those are fair questions. I wonder them as well.

Freedom of choice. God set before us life and death chose life that you may
live. But all have chosen death because of lack of faith. God sent His Son
to save us and not condem. Look around still a lot don't believe. We all
die because flesh and blood can't live forever. In Adam all die in Christ
all made a live. It is your Choice. Why do bad thing happen we don't
know. Why does my computer crashes. Sometime we don't know. We will never
be that smart in the flesh. And that the way it is. Better to light one
candle than to curse the drakness.

Post by Carl Rooker

Post by The Magic Rat
I'm an agnostic who believes that if God does exist, It cannot possibly
be all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful proposed by the
Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion. If this were the case, then how could
one explain the purpose of a small child being tortured/murdered? How
could one explain the terrible diseases you mentioned?
If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, then how could he
allow terribly evil things to happen to the innocents (unless our
conception of "good" is incorrect). Seemingly, one of the three
elements would have to be missing.
I would posit that God cannot be all-powerful because I have free will,
I think (let's not make this a determinism argument!). At least,
that's my hope. I'd prefer to keep God all-good and all-knowing.
An all-powerful, all-knowing, not-all-good God is pretty scary...

What does your free will have to do with whether God is all knowing, all
powerful, and all good?
Your argument is based on one flaw. It blames God for the problems we have
caused ourselves by exercising our free will. As in the example given of a
child being tortured, there is no good purpose in this. But it is a human
torturing that child, not God.
If the Bible is correct (and I believe it is), then we as a species has
turned our collective back on God. That is why there is evil on this earth.
So men of free will oppress others. They torture, steal, kill, spread
disease, lie, cheat, ignore compassion, etc. As a species, this was our
choice.
Now, just because we have exercised our free will, does not mean that God is
not all powerful. It means that He allows us to go our own way, and we reap
what we have sown.
In His compassion He will not allow this to go on forever. But let us stop
blaming Him for our misfortunes, caused by our misdeeds.
God Bless
Carl

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent
children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are
some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some
born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations
designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

-- [snip of repeated questions] --

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man)
that need to kill and eat other animals to survive?

Same answer.

Post by wmech
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be
a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

So it appears, if you choose to see Him that way.

Post by wmech
If he treats us so cruelly during life

"Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.

It was _Man_ who sinned. God just gave Man the choice.

Post by wmech
why do you think, if we kiss his ring, he will let us enjoy
peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

Because He said so.

Post by wmech
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no
concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

So why did you ask the questions above if you already "knew" the
"answers"?

-- [remaining insults snipped] --


Curtis

[The Magic Rat]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Why would an all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing god allow
innocents to be punished. Just punish the guilty! Punishing innocent
people/animals is unjust and evil based on my conception of justice and
evil.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by The Magic Rat

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Why would an all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing god allow
innocents to be punished. Just punish the guilty! Punishing
innocent people/animals is unjust and evil based on my conception
of justice and evil.

Your "conception of justice and evil" is irrelevant.

God told Adam to leave the tree alone.

Adam, wanting to be just like God, arrogantly refused.

Blame Adam for your guilt. No human is innocent.

Animals are innocent. Blame Adam for their "punishment".

Adam made the decision, not God.


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Your "conception of justice and evil" is irrelevant.
God told Adam to leave the tree alone.
Adam, wanting to be just like God, arrogantly refused.
Blame Adam for your guilt. No human is innocent.
Animals are innocent. Blame Adam for their "punishment".
Adam made the decision, not God.

God intended for Adam to make the decision. Blame God for implementing his
grand plan.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Your "conception of justice and evil" is irrelevant.
God told Adam to leave the tree alone.
Adam, wanting to be just like God, arrogantly refused.
Blame Adam for your guilt. No human is innocent.
Animals are innocent. Blame Adam for their "punishment".
Adam made the decision, not God.

God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.

For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.

Yes.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.

Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God created it for us
in the first place. Either He is the creator of all things or He is not.
If He is, then He must bear the responsibility that goes with it.

[Eric Brze]

On Wed, 18 May 2005 17:14:11 +0000 (UTC), "Midjis"

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.

Yes.

No. God never gave anybody the free will. Satan did.

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.

Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God created it for us
in the first place. Either He is the creator of all things or He is not.
If He is, then He must bear the responsibility that goes with it.

If you understand that God never gave us the free will, you understand
the "damnation" was never created by God. God is the creator of all
things except the sin and hell. Sin is a lie. Hell is the ignorance of
God by believing the lie(sin). None of them is created by God.

Now, what was the God's responsibility you were talking about?

[Midjis]

Post by Eric Brze

Yes.

No. God never gave anybody the free will. Satan did.

That presupposes that Satan would have the power to alter God's design, and
that God would not have the power to alter it back.

Unlikely, in light of what Christianity tells us about God.

Post by Eric Brze
If you understand that God never gave us the free will, you understand
the "damnation" was never created by God. God is the creator of all
things except the sin and hell.

So you suggest that there is a creative force equivalent to that of God
which has created these things. Interesting. While the Old Testament does
not insist that God, the Abramic God, is the only one of Its kind, modern
Christianity does. So what is this equivalent force?

[Eric Brze]

On Thu, 19 May 2005 16:06:24 +0000 (UTC), "Midjis"

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze

Yes.

No. God never gave anybody the free will. Satan did.

That presupposes that Satan would have the power to alter God's design, and
that God would not have the power to alter it back.
Unlikely, in light of what Christianity tells us about God.

Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the deception
may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is revealed.

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze
If you understand that God never gave us the free will, you understand
the "damnation" was never created by God. God is the creator of all
things except the sin and hell.

So you suggest that there is a creative force equivalent to that of God
which has created these things.

No. If you continued to read my explanation about the nature of sin
and hell, you should have found out that they were never real.

Interesting. While the Old Testament does

Post by Midjis
not insist that God, the Abramic God, is the only one of Its kind, modern
Christianity does. So what is this equivalent force?

There is none.

[Midjis]

Post by Eric Brze
Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the deception
may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is revealed.

Right. But of course, this leaves us with a God who is not all-powerful,
since He was unable to prevent such alterations being made. The alternative
is, as stated, that the alterations were part of His design, and are
therefore His responsibility.

Post by Eric Brze
No. If you continued to read my explanation about the nature of sin
and hell, you should have found out that they were never real.

Then there is no need for salvation.

[Pastor Frank]

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze
Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the deception
may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is revealed.

Right. But of course, this leaves us with a God who is not all-powerful,
since He was unable to prevent such alterations being made. The
alternative is, as stated, that the alterations were part of His design,
and are therefore His responsibility.

Yes. God could eliminate all dichotomies and therewith extinguish
conscious existence. Consciousness can only exist within recognised
differences.

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze
Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the
deception may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is
revealed.

Right. But of course, this leaves us with a God who is not
all-powerful, since He was unable to prevent such alterations being
made. The alternative is, as stated, that the alterations were part
of His design, and are therefore His responsibility.

Yes. God could eliminate all dichotomies and therewith extinguish
conscious existence. Consciousness can only exist within recognised
differences.

An interesting, if baseless, assertion that does not address the point.
Either God did not have the power to prevent the creation of Hell and sin
by Satan, or to undo these, or He had the power but chose not to do so.
Either He bears the full responsibility for everything that the human
species does and every ill that befalls us, or we are mistaken to think of
Him as being all-powerful.

[wmech]

Simple but devastating logic.

--
Bill

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze
Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the
deception may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is
revealed.

Right. But of course, this leaves us with a God who is not
all-powerful, since He was unable to prevent such alterations being
made. The alternative is, as stated, that the alterations were part
of His design, and are therefore His responsibility.

Yes. God could eliminate all dichotomies and therewith extinguish
conscious existence. Consciousness can only exist within recognised
differences.

An interesting, if baseless, assertion that does not address the point.
Either God did not have the power to prevent the creation of Hell and sin
by Satan, or to undo these, or He had the power but chose not to do so.
Either He bears the full responsibility for everything that the human
species does and every ill that befalls us, or we are mistaken to think of
Him as being all-powerful.

[Pastor Frank]

Post by wmech
Bill

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze
Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the
deception may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is
revealed.

Right. But of course, this leaves us with a God who is not
all-powerful, since He was unable to prevent such alterations being
made. The alternative is, as stated, that the alterations were part
of His design, and are therefore His responsibility.

Yes. God could eliminate all dichotomies and therewith extinguish
conscious existence. Consciousness can only exist within recognised
differences.

An interesting, if baseless, assertion that does not address the point.
Either God did not have the power to prevent the creation of Hell and sin
by Satan, or to undo these, or He had the power but chose not to do so.
Either He bears the full responsibility for everything that the human
species does and every ill that befalls us, or we are mistaken to think of
Him as being all-powerful.

Simple but devastating logic.

Yes. "Simple but devastating ATHEIST logic. Atheists always argue, that
one can have good without knowing evil, and everyone can tell the difference
in some miraculous and supernatural way.

[wmech]

Say what???

--
Bill

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by wmech
Bill

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Midjis

Post by Eric Brze
Correct. The power of Satan is the power of lie and deception. The
power of God is the power of truth and honesty. Although the
deception may appear powerful, it's nothing once the truth is
revealed.

Right. But of course, this leaves us with a God who is not
all-powerful, since He was unable to prevent such alterations being
made. The alternative is, as stated, that the alterations were part
of His design, and are therefore His responsibility.

Yes. God could eliminate all dichotomies and therewith extinguish
conscious existence. Consciousness can only exist within recognised
differences.

An interesting, if baseless, assertion that does not address the point.
Either God did not have the power to prevent the creation of Hell and sin
by Satan, or to undo these, or He had the power but chose not to do so.
Either He bears the full responsibility for everything that the human
species does and every ill that befalls us, or we are mistaken to think of
Him as being all-powerful.

Simple but devastating logic.

Yes. "Simple but devastating ATHEIST logic. Atheists always argue, that
one can have good without knowing evil, and everyone can tell the difference
in some miraculous and supernatural way.

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank
Yes. "Simple but devastating ATHEIST logic. Atheists always argue, that
one can have good without knowing evil, and everyone can tell the
difference in some miraculous and supernatural way.

Tell me, Frank - why do you think someone who isn't an atheist would employ
"atheist logic"?

Oh, but I forgot: I must be an atheist because you've said so - and you
control these groups and everyone on them, right?

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.

Yes.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.

Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God created
it for us in the first place. Either He is the creator of all
things or He is not. If He is, then He must bear the responsibility
that goes with it.

Fine. Reject Him and go to hell.

No skin of my nose. Or His.


Curtis

[z***@hotmail.com]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.

Yes.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.

Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God created
it for us in the first place. Either He is the creator of all
things or He is not. If He is, then He must bear the responsibility
that goes with it.

Fine. Reject Him and go to hell.
No skin of my nose. Or His.
Curtis

You guys are much to cut and dry. Midjis is asking questions and some
very good ones I might add. If you were to reason with him with the
word of God you might get some where, however, most of you haven't
asked enough questions yourselves to be able to answer effectively. So
now it's my turn to show my ignorance.

God is not the author of confusion - 1 Cor. 14:33.
God created Lucifer not Satan - Is. 14:12-15.

With that in mind:
"Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God created it
for us in the first place. Either He is the creator of all things or
He is not. If He is, then He must bear the responsibility that goes
with it.". This is interesting, this relieves us from the
responsibility of our actions - not unlike modern Christianity likes to
do. This alone should show Midjis not to be an atheist. What most forms
of Christianity miss is what God's purpose for mankind is. What is He
up to? Why did He create us and what does He expect we do?
God did not create damnation, that would be confusion.
God created all things except the attitude of "get" found in Satan.
This attitude is what changed Lucifer into Satan. Now, did God know
this wound happen? Scripture doesn't say, but consider this. If you
were trying to reproduce yourself and expand your family so that they
would have all your power (authority) over all of your property
(creation) you certainly wouldn't want a bunch of Satans running around
the universe. We are to be His children with all the power of the
Father as to the Son/sons/children. God like any father does not wish
His children to fail, He does expect them to learn and quite often that
means failing along the way. Adam could've chosen the tree of life
which encompassed all the knowledge of the tree of good and evil.

If, God knew that Lucifer would change then yes it seems He set
damnation before us and would bear the responsibility of its outcome.
Of course since we are His creation it is His prerogative to just wipe
the slate clean and start again if He wishes. This is nothing more than
human speculation though and we know that God does not think the way we
do for even the wisdom of man is as the foolishness of God.

Peter

PS. please, feel free to rebuke me. ; )
BTW Curtis, Christ spent three days and three nights in hell, why
should any of us be any different?

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by z***@hotmail.com

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.

Yes.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.

Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God
created it for us in the first place. Either He is the
creator of all things or He is not. If He is, then He must
bear the responsibility that goes with it.

Fine. Reject Him and go to hell.
No skin of my nose. Or His.
Curtis

You guys are much to cut and dry.

No, actually, it's God who's "cut and dry".

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Midjis is asking questions and some very good ones I might
add.

No, he's making assertions. Very unhelpful ones, I might add.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If you were to reason with him with the
word of God you might get some where

Been There Done That.

"Debate" doesn't work. That's why Jesus didn't send His apostles into
the world and tell them to "debate God". No, He sent them out to tell
the world the Good News. If the people of the world reject it, End Of
Story.

No "debate".

Post by z***@hotmail.com
however, most of you haven't asked enough questions
yourselves to be able to answer effectively.

Now _you're _ making assertions.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
So now it's my turn to show my ignorance.

Fire away . . .

Post by z***@hotmail.com
God is not the author of confusion - 1 Cor. 14:33.
God created Lucifer not Satan - Is. 14:12-15.
"Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God
created it for us in the first place.

Incorrect. Man created it by making the wrong choice.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Either He is the creator of all things or He is not.

Depends on how you define "all things". He doesn't make our choices
for us, although He does create the choices.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If He is, then He must bear the responsibility that goes
with it.". This is interesting, this relieves us from the
responsibility of our actions - not unlike modern Christianity
likes to do.

No. Modern Christianity teaches that _we_ are responsible for our
actions. _Man_ made the choice to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, ergo,
Man is responsible for his state of Sin.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
This alone should show Midjis not to be an atheist. What most
forms of Christianity miss is what God's purpose for mankind
is.

"Most forms of Christianity"?

Post by z***@hotmail.com
What is He up to? Why did He create us and what does He expect
we do?

It's all spelled out in the Bible.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
God did not create damnation
God created all things except . . .

So then, God did not "create all things"?

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If, God knew that Lucifer would change then yes it seems
He set damnation before us and would bear the responsibility
of its outcome.

What makes you think He isn't bearing that responsibility?

Post by z***@hotmail.com
BTW Curtis, Christ spent three days and three nights in hell,
why should any of us be any different?

Christ went there so that we wouldn't have to, but some people seem
rather insistent.


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Midjis is asking questions and some very good ones I might
add.

No, he's making assertions. Very unhelpful ones, I might add.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If you were to reason with him with the
word of God you might get some where

Been There Done That.

You know, I may just have forgotten, since I haven't looked at this sub-
thread in a while, but so far as I can see our exchange, Curtis, consisted
of two posts from you and one from me. I've checked Google and it seems to
agree with me.

Something of a casual acquaintance, wouldn't you say, to merit such a
dismissive "been there done that"?

Unless there are further posts I've forgotten about, you didn't make much
of an effort, did you? Ah, but then why should the lofty saved waste their
time on the sinful...?

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Midjis is asking questions and some very good ones I might
add.

No, he's making assertions. Very unhelpful ones, I might add.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If you were to reason with him with the
word of God you might get some where

Been There Done That.

You know, I may just have forgotten

There are/were other fora besides this one -- I was in this "debate"
back in the days of FidoNET. Before that was face-to-face with
unbelievers. "Debate" didn't work then, and I see no evidence of it
working now.

Some Things Don't Change.

Post by Midjis
Ah, but then why should the lofty saved waste their
time on the sinful...?

Your question is backwards.

"Why should the lofty sinful pay any attention to the knuckle-dragging
saved?" is what you mean, innit?

The "problem" with Christianity and The Great Commission is that Man,
in his modern trappings of techno-marvel, has decided that he simply
doesn't need to be saved. There is nothing beyond Death, evolution
proves that beyond any reasonable doubt. Evolution isn't theory --
it's undeniable Fact. Just ask any believer in Evolution.


Curtis


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
There are/were other fora besides this one -- I was in this "debate"
back in the days of FidoNET. Before that was face-to-face with
unbelievers. "Debate" didn't work then, and I see no evidence of it
working now.

Which surely begs the question of why, if debate with us lost causes is
such a waste of time, you still try it.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Your question is backwards.
"Why should the lofty sinful pay any attention to the knuckle-dragging
saved?" is what you mean, innit?

No, Curtis. I meant what I said. If you find it necessary to make up
the other side of conversations then that may go some why towards
explaining why you never get anything out of them.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
The "problem" with Christianity and The Great Commission is that Man,
in his modern trappings of techno-marvel, has decided that he simply
doesn't need to be saved.

In Christian terms, all are unsaved until they are saved. Some seek
salvation, some choose not to. Is that choice not each person's right,
in accordance with the free will they have been given?

Post by c***@yahoo.com
There is nothing beyond Death, evolution
proves that beyond any reasonable doubt.

Evolution proves, or even claims, nothing of the sort.

Between your claim that evolution proves there is nothing after death,
and John Boatwright's rambling about evolution's claim that there are
'ocean gods', it's hardly surprising some (and I say SOME, mark you)
Christians just cannot get their heads around evolution.

You have some pretty barmy ideas about what evolution actually is - ideas
that rarely seem to coincide with what evolutionary theory does indeed
say. I submit that these ideas are drawn more from your own fears and
prejudices than they are from your efforts to 'know your enemy'.

In war, not knowing your enemy can get you killed. Here, it just makes
you look irrational.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Evolution isn't theory -- it's undeniable Fact.

No - it's a theory. A scientific theory. That means it's not undeniable
fact, and it's not hypothetical speculation either. It's something in
between - something that for too many of the Creationist lobby is
somewhere between the black and white absolutes that are the only two
positions they seem able to recognise.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
There are/were other fora besides this one -- I was in this "debate"
back in the days of FidoNET. Before that was face-to-face with
unbelievers. "Debate" didn't work then, and I see no evidence of it
working now.

Which surely begs the question of why, if debate with us lost causes is
such a waste of time, you still try it.

I wasn't aware that pointing out the fruitlessness of debate was
debate.

What truly begs the question is why people ask baiting questions wrt
Christianity and/or the Bible when they aren't the least bit interested
in hearing what a "bible-thumping moron Christian who believes in Fairy
Tales" has to say.

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Your question is backwards.
"Why should the lofty sinful pay any attention to the knuckle-dragging
saved?" is what you mean, innit?

No, Curtis. I meant what I said.

Well, you seem to believe that, at any rate. The problem is that it is
indeed the unsaved who consider themselves "superior" to the saved, and
do as you just did, sarcastically invoke the "superiority" of the saved
for the sole purpose of mocking the saved.

Post by Midjis
If you find it necessary to make up
the other side of conversations

What makes you think I'm making anything up?

Post by Midjis
then that may go some why towards
explaining why you never get anything out of them.

What makes you think I seek to "get anything out of" anybody?

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
The "problem" with Christianity and The Great Commission is that Man,
in his modern trappings of techno-marvel, has decided that he simply
doesn't need to be saved.

In Christian terms, all are unsaved until they are saved. Some seek
salvation, some choose not to. Is that choice not each person's right,
in accordance with the free will they have been given?

Certainly. Have I ever claimed otherwise?

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
There is nothing beyond Death, evolution
proves that beyond any reasonable doubt.

Evolution proves, or even claims, nothing of the sort.

Transitivity, my friend. Transitivity.

Evolution "proves" that God doesn't exist, or so the Followers of
Darwin assert. Since there is no God, there cannot be a Heaven or Hell
-- it's all just myth. With no Heaven or Hell, we simply enter
oblivion when we die.

QED.

Post by Midjis
Between your claim that evolution proves there is nothing after death,
and John Boatwright's rambling about evolution's claim that there are
'ocean gods', it's hardly surprising some (and I say SOME, mark you)
Christians just cannot get their heads around evolution.

Perhaps, but it's equally valid to note that some of those who practice
the religion of Evolution can't get their heads around Christianity.

Post by Midjis
You have some pretty barmy ideas about what evolution actually is - ideas
that rarely seem to coincide with what evolutionary theory does indeed
say. I submit that these ideas are drawn more from your own fears and
prejudices than they are from your efforts to 'know your enemy'.
In war, not knowing your enemy can get you killed. Here, it just makes
you look irrational.

Actually, you have no earthly idea what my ideas of evolution are.

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Evolution isn't theory -- it's undeniable Fact.

No - it's a theory. A scientific theory. That means it's not undeniable
fact, and it's not hypothetical speculation either. It's something in
between - something that for too many of the Creationist lobby is
somewhere between the black and white absolutes that are the only two
positions they seem able to recognise.

Hmm. "All are unsaved until they are saved." That seems pretty black
and white. Why is black vs. white such a problem?

And regardless of your recognizing that evolution is a theory, it's
still treated as undeniable fact by its converts.


Curtis

[Pastor Frank]

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Midjis is asking questions and some very good ones I might
add.

No, he's making assertions. Very unhelpful ones, I might add.

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If you were to reason with him with the
word of God you might get some where

Been There Done That.

You know, I may just have forgotten, since I haven't looked at this sub-
thread in a while, but so far as I can see our exchange, Curtis, consisted
of two posts from you and one from me. I've checked Google and it seems to
agree with me.
Something of a casual acquaintance, wouldn't you say, to merit such a
dismissive "been there done that"?
Unless there are further posts I've forgotten about, you didn't make much
of an effort, did you? Ah, but then why should the lofty saved waste their
time on the sinful...?

Baiting the faithful again in our pristine Christian NGs, Midjis? Even
if you believe the created COSMOS, no matter how grand and impersonal, is
god, you are still an atheist. Please preach you atheism in atheist NGs.
Thanks.

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank
Baiting the faithful again in our pristine Christian NGs, Midjis?

No, Frank - I was addressing one of the faithful on a number of
newsgroups relating to Christianity. If he chooses to interpret it as
baiting, then that's between him and me. He does not need you to speak
for him.

As I've said to you before, this group is unmoderated. If you want
'pristine', then go to a moderated one.

Post by Pastor Frank
Even
if you believe the created COSMOS, no matter how grand and impersonal,
is god, you are still an atheist.

Thank you! Finally you get around to admitting that established
definitions don't matter to you, and that you'll simply re-write the
language in order to be able to say what you want to say.

That confession of dishonesty has made a big difference, Frank. Now I
can treat you as someone who's deliberately mendacious rather than
someone who's simply too obsessed with his own importance to see his
mistakes.

Post by Pastor Frank
Please preach you atheism in
atheist NGs. Thanks.

I preach nothing - and I will post where I please.

[z***@hotmail.com]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
No, actually, it's God who's "cut and dry".

*** That's right, God is not a God of tolerance! His ways and what He
expects of His creation are laid out in great detail, man cuts corners
in order to do that which pleases him. God's word convicts man and man
doesn't like it, he just wants to keep his traditions and feasts. Man
wants to praise and worship God on his own terms, not God's!

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Midjis is asking questions and some very good ones I might
add.

No, he's making assertions. Very unhelpful ones, I might add.

*** Problem?

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If you were to reason with him with the
word of God you might get some where

Been There Done That.

*** Not by the evidence of even this post.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
"Debate" doesn't work. That's why Jesus didn't send His apostles into
the world and tell them to "debate God". No, He sent them out to tell
the world the Good News. If the people of the world reject it, End Of
Story.
No "debate".

*** I didn't say debate now did I? I said reason. Isaiah 1:18, "Come
now, and let us reason together, Says the Lord.". In reason there is
discussion, there is an exchange of ideas, and notions, thoughts, and
even misunderstandings. Even Paul used this on many occasions, look in
Acts 17, 18 and 24.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
however, most of you haven't asked enough questions
yourselves to be able to answer effectively.

Now _you're _ making assertions.

*** Be that as it may but tell me, do you celebrate the birth of our
Saviour? If so why? Do you do it because it is Biblical or the
traditions of man? Have you ever questioned why or where it came from?
Have you truly proven for yourself and by yourself that God really
exists? Do get me wrong, I'm not saying you don't believe, nor that He
doesn't exist.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
So now it's my turn to show my ignorance.

Fire away . . .

Post by z***@hotmail.com
God is not the author of confusion - 1 Cor. 14:33.
God created Lucifer not Satan - Is. 14:12-15.
"Salvation from a damnation that we only face because God
created it for us in the first place.

Incorrect. Man created it by making the wrong choice.

*** Um, I was making a rebuttal to a previous point, not a statement.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
Either He is the creator of all things or He is not.

Depends on how you define "all things". He doesn't make our choices
for us, although He does create the choices.

*** Well no one is asserting that He does, that's what free will is all
about.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If He is, then He must bear the responsibility that goes
with it.". This is interesting, this relieves us from the
responsibility of our actions - not unlike modern Christianity
likes to do.

No. Modern Christianity teaches that _we_ are responsible for our
actions. _Man_ made the choice to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, ergo,
Man is responsible for his state of Sin.

*** Again I'm critiquing the statement not agreeing with it. If, as
Midjis proposes, "God must bare the responsibility", that leaves us
blameless doesn't it?

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
This alone should show Midjis not to be an atheist. What most
forms of Christianity miss is what God's purpose for mankind
is.

"Most forms of Christianity"?

*** I'm sorry you would prefer "denominations"? Okay, po-tatoe,
po-ta-toe. There is only one true Christianity (Apastolic
Christianity!)and it is NOT found in an array of Churches all doing
their own thing. They all say something different, they can't all be
right! God is NOT a wheel! As you said at top, God is "cut and dry"!

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
What is He up to? Why did He create us and what does He expect
we do?

It's all spelled out in the Bible.

*** Then why aren't you doing it? Ask yourself; 'Am I really?', and
'How do I know?' These are some of the things Midjis is asking, I've
asked and others.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
God did not create damnation
God created all things except . . .

So then, God did not "create all things"?

*** Again, not what I said, look past the "..." and you will read that
I said He didn't create SATAN in that I said, "God created all things
except the attitude of "get" found in Satan. This attitude is what
changed Lucifer into Satan. Ergo, He did not create Satan!

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
If, God knew that Lucifer would change then yes it seems
He set damnation before us and would bear the responsibility
of its outcome.

What makes you think He isn't bearing that responsibility?

*** Really not the point here, if He did put this block before us then
it is for our admonition.

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by z***@hotmail.com
BTW Curtis, Christ spent three days and three nights in hell,
why should any of us be any different?

Christ went there so that we wouldn't have to, but some people seem
rather insistent.

*** ; ) Yes, very good. It is appointed for all men to die and all will
be in hell (grave) as Christ was and therefore be resurrected as He
was.

Peter

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Curtis

[z***@hotmail.com]

Post by z***@hotmail.com

Post by c***@yahoo.com
No, actually, it's God who's "cut and dry".

*** Be that as it may but tell me, do you celebrate the birth of our
Saviour? If so why? Do you do it because it is Biblical or the
traditions of man? Have you ever questioned why or where it came from?
Have you truly proven for yourself and by yourself that God really
exists? Do get me wrong,

*** I really should proof slower, this should read; "DON'T get me
wrong.",***

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Fine. Reject Him and go to hell.
No skin of my nose. Or His.

Thank you for your permission.

[R. Steve Walz]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.
Curtis

-----------------
Why would anyone want to go to "hebbin", patently boring!!

Mythology. There is no proof of any afterlife, or that anyone
has ever died and gone anywhere but to dirt. The bible was
written by liars who pretended that they knew, usually to
exert influence or grab for power, or to propagandize for
their movement or tribe.

And there is no such thing as "Free Will" either! Just
because we have a mind that conceives of complex reasons
and models ourselves as a conceptualbeing in a mental world
model, namely our "self-awareness" (more life self-delusion),
doesn't mean it's actually under some fanciful willful control
of some fantasy imaginary "Ourself" that controls it, all our
brain processes are simply the outcomes of the very inevitable
chemical reactions that could never happen other than the
way they did, and when we experience only one single final
future for every single instant of our lives. Even if you
don't believe the physical world is concrete and foundational,
why, we cannot even intentionally change the very tiniest thing
we believe in by some effort of "Will". You can try it and get
back to me and if you're honest you'll admit that you'd have
to lie to me to claim that you control what you think and do,
and that your beliefs emerge from whatever underlies your mental
existence below your ability to even know, and that they aren't
under your "control" at all, not anything you believe or anything
you do about it.

The delusion of "Free Will" came about in the Inquisition to talk
torturers into the notion that people deserved being tortured for
"intentional" wrong thinking!! That old lie is nothing but a
slave-control propaganda to permit the Church and the Feudal
masters to cowe the populace into submission to their will.

Nobody is under control of anything in their lives, the entire
fabric/process of everyone's life is just a ride you experience,
you can no more control it than you can lift yourself into the
air by your belt. You will do what you do, and if you like it
you'll claim that you did it intentionally, and you'llbe WRONG!
And if you don't like it you'll blame it on someone else, your
luck, your upbringing, and YOU'LL be RIGHT! Causes cause effects!
Previous situations cause the next ones!

The only way to change anyone is from without, by someone accidentally
influencing them with argument and action. But it
so happens that goodness is an organizing principle in the very
dynamic of existence, but even that happens as a result of random
processes. Let me show you:

When life evolves, it remains unconscious until it finds a quite
comfortable niche in the biochemistry for itself, and only then
after the planet or climate proves reliable over sufficient eons
to permit advanced forms, only then does it generate conscious
self-aware beings whose living and dying we would even care about.
And when we are born we are not even aware yet, that grows in us,
our Beinghood, only AFTER we are born and grown enough to support
an Awareness. And as we grow up we remain stupid and naive enough
to support our hopeful delusions that we are cared for and loved,
even when later in life we may be quite a bit more aware that those
things were quite dicey at times. And when we die, we do not have
to experience the pain of decay and dissolution of the chemical
body all the way down to its return to base chemicals, because our
Awareness becomes unsupportable with just a single strategic organ-
failure. These features of naivete', hope, and fragility of the
system supporting awareness protect us as a Mother sheltering its
child. Even if we are sick or very traumatically injured, we are
protected by shock and unconsciousness. We are blessed, because
everywhere we find ourselves, every life in which our Self-Awaremess
might be viable, will always seem magically to be a pretty good one
in which we won't feel too cold, or too hungry, or too frightened,
just because if we become actually too cold, hungry, or scared,
we simply WON'T BE THERE ANYMORE!!

THIS is a basic example of how Goodness and Hope and Happiness
arise out of totally random events, cause and effect, and Unaware
Processes, and how the very Nature of Existence is Self-Organizing,

There need not be any "God" per se, not one that is an Awareness
Itself. All we need is this Fantastic Imagination Machine called
Existence to produce every possible happening, and then to naturally
select only those happenings that are Fun for Aware Beings to
Experience. And if it doesn't seem like Fun, then just Leave and
you'll go somewhere else and be somebody else!
Steve

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by R. Steve Walz

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam to make the decision.
Blame God for implementing his grand plan.

IOW, blame God for giving Man free will.
For the record, that "grand plan" included salvation.
Curtis

-----------------
Why would anyone want to go to "hebbin", patently boring!!

How do you know?

Post by R. Steve Walz
The bible was written by liars

Prove it.

-- [Mental Masturbation snipped] --

Your rant is basically nothing more than liberal "it ain't my fault!"
whining, an emphatic attempt to avoid responsibility for one's actions.



Curtis

[The Magic Rat]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by The Magic Rat
Why would an all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing god allow
innocents to be punished. Just punish the guilty! Punishing
innocent people/animals is unjust and evil based on my conception
of justice and evil.

Your "conception of justice and evil" is irrelevant.
God told Adam to leave the tree alone.
Adam, wanting to be just like God, arrogantly refused.
Blame Adam for your guilt. No human is innocent.

I disagree. Young children are innocent.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Animals are innocent. Blame Adam for their "punishment".

Punishing those without the intellect to make sense of the pain or to
spiritually rise above it is a pretty mean thing to do.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Adam made the decision, not God.
Curtis

[wmech]

I thought Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins!

And why does your god punish obviously innocent children? And how could all
of the over 200,000 that died in the recent Asian tsunami all be sinners. It
included 100,000 children and many so called "holy people".

--
Bill

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent
children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are
some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some
born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations
designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.
-- [snip of repeated questions] --

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man)
that need to kill and eat other animals to survive?

Same answer.

Post by wmech
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be
a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

So it appears, if you choose to see Him that way.

Post by wmech
If he treats us so cruelly during life

"Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.
It was _Man_ who sinned. God just gave Man the choice.

Post by wmech
why do you think, if we kiss his ring, he will let us enjoy
peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

Because He said so.

Post by wmech
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer".
The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has no
concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

So why did you ask the questions above if you already "knew" the
"answers"?
-- [remaining insults snipped] --
Curtis

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by wmech
I thought Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins!

He did.

Post by wmech
And why does your god punish obviously innocent children?

Your question is meaningless.

God said "If you do A then B will happen".

Adam arrogantly did A anyway.

Post by wmech
And how could all of the over 200,000 that died in the
recent Asian tsunami all be sinners. It included 100,000
children and many so called "holy people".

If you are a homo sapiens, then you are, by definition, a sinner.

Thank Adam for that. Not God. Adam made the choice, not God.


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
And why does your god punish obviously innocent children?

Your question is meaningless.

The question is pertinent. The God of Genesis imposes the concept of
'original sin' on every generation of Man. Remember that the God of Genesis
as Christians see Him today is the all-knowing, all-powerful, one true God
(despite the fact that Genesis itself suggests otherwise). Therefore from a
modern Christian standpoint all that has happened has happened in accordance
with God's design. God created sin. God created Hell. God created the
tree and deliberately placed it where He knew it would be a temptation. God
lied about the effects of eating from the tree. God created the Serpent
(Satan, if you believe the two are one and the same, which Genesis does not
explicitly state) and placed him in the Garden. God designed humans with
free will and curiosity.

God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree - and then He punishes
every generation based on the fact that we did what He intended for us to
do.

If the God of Genesis is our creator, if He designed us, and if He is
omnipotent, then HE must bear the responsibility for everything we have done
and will do.

The God of Genesis is doing nothing other than playing games with human
lives and human souls.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree

Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.

Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree

Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.

Your demand requires that I prove something I do not believe actually
occurred. I cannot do that, obviously, otherwise I would have no choice but
to believe in it.

However, if for the sake of argument we assume that the origins of Man are
as described in Genesis, then we have a God who designed and created every
aspect of Man, including that free will. Knowing His creation inside and
out, he then placed a tree in the middle of the garden where His creation
would see it every day. He abjured them not to eat of it - and lied to them
in the process - but just to make sure they did, he sent the Serpent to
tempt Eve, knowing that she would be weak and give in. Of course He knew
all these things, because He is God. And just as He created Eve, He created
the Serpent. The Serpent, we can see, was not just another creation, since
he knew things about the garden that Eve and Adam did not. He knew that God
had lied - and he was shown to be right. The only conclusion therefore is
that he had inside knowledge.

Of course, it may be argued that by this time Satan (many Genesis advocates
insist that the serpent is Satan) had done his 'fall' from Heaven and was
walking the Earth. However, this can't be the case, since Satan was still
an important part of God's retinue at the time of the Book of Job. Assuming
we accept the notion of a fall at all, and don't simply view the
'demonisation' of Satan as a way to compensate for the changing nature of
God, it must have happened AFTER Job - unless of course God continued even
after the supposed 'fall' to work with Satan in implementing His
aforementioned plan. What IS clear is that evil only became represented by
Satan in the New Testament, since before that time God was perfectly capable
of providing His own evil. Only when He became all-loving and merciful was
a 'devil' required to explain the evils in the world - despite the fact that
this 'devil' would raise unanswerable questions about just how powerful this
newly-omnipotent God was supposed to be. The Old Testament does NOT in fact
present God as all-powerful, nor as a single god.

So, to conclude: God creates Heaven and Earth. God designs and creates
Man, in the form of Adam and Eve. He knows what they're going to do, and He
knows what punishment He's going to inflict on them when they do it. He
creates a Hell and a Devil to torment Man, and allows the Devil to take free
rein over the Earth and the people on it. As I said, God is either the
creator of all things, or He is not. If He IS, then he bears the
responsibility for everything that happens and everything His creation does.

[Reef Fish]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree

Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.
Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.
Curtis

Curtis, you are barking at the wrong forums.

In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.
Alternative, you say everything is PROVEN by such-and-such in the
Bible.

It's an exymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.

You need to be GULLIBLE and accept everything ON FAITH!

Get it?

-- Bob.

[Eric Brze]

On 18 May 2005 10:17:47 -0700, "Reef Fish"

Post by Reef Fish

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree

Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.
Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.
Curtis

Curtis, you are barking at the wrong forums.
In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.
Alternative, you say everything is PROVEN by such-and-such in the
Bible.
It's an exymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.
You need to be GULLIBLE and accept everything ON FAITH!

However gullible believers may be, the Lord Christ in the believers'
heart is never gullible. That's why faith is important. It's by the
believer's faith in Christ, all lies are exposed by Christ for the
benefit of the believer.

Now, what's wrong to be gullible for a believer of Christ?

Post by Reef Fish
Get it?
-- Bob.

[wmech]

Post by Eric Brze
On 18 May 2005 10:17:47 -0700, "Reef Fish"

Post by Reef Fish

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree

Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.
Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.
Curtis

Curtis, you are barking at the wrong forums.
In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.
Alternative, you say everything is PROVEN by such-and-such in the
Bible.
It's an exymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.
You need to be GULLIBLE and accept everything ON FAITH!

However gullible believers may be, the Lord Christ in the believers'
heart is never gullible. That's why faith is important. It's by the
believer's faith in Christ, all lies are exposed by Christ for the
benefit of the believer.

What shear stupidity. You blieve is something that has no objective
evidence, is illogical, unproven and is a torcherer of the human race.

Post by Eric Brze
Now, what's wrong to be gullible for a believer of Christ?

Post by Reef Fish
Get it?
-- Bob.

[Pastor Frank]

Post by wmech

Post by Eric Brze
On 18 May 2005 10:17:47 -0700, "Reef Fish"

Post by Reef Fish

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree
Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.
Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.
Curtis

Curtis, you are barking at the wrong forums.
In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.
Alternative, you say everything is PROVEN by such-and-such in the
Bible.
It's an oxymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.
You need to be GULLIBLE and accept everything ON FAITH!

However gullible believers may be, the Lord Christ in the believers'
heart is never gullible. That's why faith is important. It's by the
believer's faith in Christ, all lies are exposed by Christ for the
benefit of the believer.

What shear stupidity. You blieve is something that has no objective
evidence, is illogical, unproven and is a torcherer of the human race.

Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and for love there will
never be "objective evidence". That's why most people marry on faith of love
alone, without thorough investigation of their beloved. They know, what your
seem to be unaware of, that no matter how much you want to make love a
guaranteed thing, proved and verified, it will never be so.

Pastor Frank

Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.

[b***@hotmail.com]

Readers react to police use of Taser on pregnant driver Responses
divided on whether officers' action was justified
Seattle Post-Intelligencer May 13 2005
When two Seattle police officers and their sergeant decided to arrest a
motorist who refused to sign a ticket, the result was a confrontation
that only ended after one officer applied a Taser to the woman, who was
eight months pregnant at the time.
Malaika Brooks, the motorist involved, was convicted last week in
Seattle Municipal Court of failing to obey a police officer because she
did not sign the ticket. The same jury was not able to agree on whether
she actually resisted arrest, which is the reason officers say they
used a Taser to arrest her.
Her sentencing is set for Wednesday. The Seattle chapter of the NAACP
has announced it plans to file a complaint with the Police Department's
Office of Professional Accountability.
A story reporting the incident in Tuesday's Seattle Post-Intelligencer
drew strong reactions from readers, who responded with more than 150
e-mails.



http://jusinkase.blogspot.com/2005/05/readers-react-to-police-use-of-taser.html

Black Rat
http://jusinkase.blogspot.com

[Midjis]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
Readers react to police use of Taser on pregnant driver

[snip apparent non-sequitur]

Is there some relevance here?

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and for love there will
never be "objective evidence". That's why most people marry on faith of
love alone, without thorough investigation of their beloved.

Which in itself is enough to make "till death us do part" a ridiculous
commitment to demand from anyone.

[wmech]

Trust me. I need money badly. Please send me $1,000 and I will return it
next month.

--
Bill

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by wmech

Post by Eric Brze
On 18 May 2005 10:17:47 -0700, "Reef Fish"

Post by Reef Fish

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree
Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.
Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.
Curtis

Curtis, you are barking at the wrong forums.
In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.
Alternative, you say everything is PROVEN by such-and-such in the
Bible.
It's an oxymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.
You need to be GULLIBLE and accept everything ON FAITH!

However gullible believers may be, the Lord Christ in the believers'
heart is never gullible. That's why faith is important. It's by the
believer's faith in Christ, all lies are exposed by Christ for the
benefit of the believer.

What shear stupidity. You blieve is something that has no objective
evidence, is illogical, unproven and is a torcherer of the human race.

Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and for love there will
never be "objective evidence". That's why most people marry on faith of love
alone, without thorough investigation of their beloved. They know, what your
seem to be unaware of, that no matter how much you want to make love a
guaranteed thing, proved and verified, it will never be so.
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.

[Pastor Frank]

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank

Almost all his fellow German speaking gays hate him, yet still he insists
on abusing my name.

Please ignore the fake Pastor Frank.
--
Pastor Frank Bernhard Schornak
Broomleigh Evangelische Kirche GmbH (Zurich)
Hardenbergstr. 14, D-Augsburg 86165, Germany
+ 49 - 0821 - 729 87 83
http://www.pastorfrank.broomleigh.com/

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Eric Brze]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank

Almost all his fellow German speaking gays hate him, yet still he insists
on abusing my name.
Please ignore the fake Pastor Frank.

Why is that your name and not his name also? There can be many Pastors
with the name Frank. What's your problem? I haven't seen you
contributing to any real discussions in here. Pastor, is your job
protecting your lovely name instead of preaching the love of your God?
By your actions, people will see who is the real "fake" Pastor Frank.

[Pastor Frank]

Post by Eric Brze
Why is that your name and not his name also? There can
be many Pastors with the name Frank. What's your problem?

He's homosexual. Everyone knows God hates fags.

Please see http://www.godhatesfags.broomleigh.org/

Post by Eric Brze
By your actions, people will see
who is the real "fake" Pastor Frank.

Errr., right, yeah, okay.
--
Pastor Frank Bernhard Schornak
Broomleigh Evangelische Kirche GmbH (Zurich)
Hardenbergstr. 14, D-Augsburg 86165, Germany
+ 49 - 0821 - 729 87 83
http://www.pastorfrank.broomleigh.com/

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[Eric Brze]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Eric Brze
Why is that your name and not his name also? There can
be many Pastors with the name Frank. What's your problem?

He's homosexual. Everyone knows God hates fags.

I strongly disagree. Homosexuality is not a choice, therefore, can't
be judged by God morally. In fact, homosexuality is a natural born
spiritual disease that can only be healed by God personally.
Therefore, God hates no fags, God only wants to help them and heal
them so that they can be in peace with their own body.

Post by Pastor Frank
Please see http://www.godhatesfags.broomleigh.org/

Post by Eric Brze
By your actions, people will see
who is the real "fake" Pastor Frank.

Errr., right, yeah, okay.

That's very good, thank you.

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank

Almost all his fellow German speaking gays hate him, yet still he
insists on abusing my name.
Please ignore the fake Pastor Frank.

Is that the fake Pastor Frank as in the one who isn't you (in which case
see Eric's very reasonable question), or the fake Pastor Frank as in the
one who tries to make out that some self-aggrandizing title makes him the
chosen spokesman of God and arbiter of the newsgroups?

[Reef Fish]

Post by wmech

Post by Eric Brze
On 18 May 2005 10:17:47 -0700, "Reef Fish"

Post by Reef Fish
It's an exymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.
You need to be GULLIBLE and accept everything ON FAITH!

I have to admit, this may be the first time I see someone who
DEFENDS "gullibility" rather than acting gullible by citing some
fiction gullably believed to be the work of God.

Post by wmech

Post by Eric Brze
However gullible believers may be, the Lord Christ in the

believers'

Post by wmech

Post by Eric Brze
heart is never gullible. That's why faith is important.

What shear stupidity. You blieve is something that has no objective
evidence, is illogical, unproven and is a torcherer of the human race.

Exactly.

Post by wmech

Post by Eric Brze
Now, what's wrong to be gullible for a believer of Christ?

Whether you believe in Christ or not, it is not a virtue to be
"gullible".

If you believe in Christ being your supreme creator, and God gave
you a MIND to think and act logically, then there should be no
reason for anyone to "gullible" for anything.

ON TOPIC: An Intelligent Designer would never have created a
defective and dumb specimen who relie on gulllibility and
lack of brains for rational thinking.

-- Bob.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Reef Fish
In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.

If someone makes an assertion, I have every right to demand proof.

Post by Reef Fish
It's an exymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.

Irreelvant, given that we aren't discussing that.


Curtis

[Pastor Frank]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Reef Fish
In religion, you don't look for PROOFS of anything.

If someone makes an assertion, I have every right to demand proof.

Post by Reef Fish
It's an exymoron of the extreme kind to ask anyone, in discussing
how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin to PROVE the number
of angels, however many there may be.

Irreelvant, given that we aren't discussing that.
Curtis

Christ is about belief and faith, not about evidence and proof. Every
intimate relationship rests on belief and faith, and NOT on evidence and
proof. Only a smartass teen would demand proof, that people love him. I.e.
Show you love me Mom, by giving me the keys to your car. Or to his girl
friend: Prove that you love me by letting me climb into your pants. LOL
Christ proved His love for us on the cross of Calvary. That's all the
proof we need.

Pastor Frank

LOVE
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
if ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12-13: This is my commandment: That ye love one another,
as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.

[Pastor Frank]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by Midjis
God intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the tree

Prove this, otherwise your whole argument is moot.
Giving Man free will does not translate into _intending_ for Man to
make the _wrong_ choice.

Yes. In Midjis' world, "God intended for man to make the wrong choice",
much like his parents intended for him to become an atheist troll, posting
idiocies to Christian NGs. He would blame his parents for everything he did
wrong, but never himself.

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank
Yes. In Midjis' world, "God intended for man to make the wrong choice",
much like his parents intended for him to become an atheist troll, posting
idiocies to Christian NGs. He would blame his parents for everything he
did wrong, but never himself.

Would I indeed, Frank? I'm interested. Why not tell the group all about
the times I have done this. I'm sure they will be fascinated. I want
specific occasions, of course - otherwise (gods forbid) someone might think
you're just spouting groundless nonsense. And you wouldn't do that, would
you? You're a "pastor", after all. Tell them just how long we've known
each other, Frank. Tell them who I am, what I look like, where I went to
school - all those things that such a close acquaintance must know. Tell
them about my parents, whom you must know equally well. Then our readers
will know that your stories about how I'd blame my parents for everything
stem from direct knowledge.

Incidentally, I take it your persistence in continuing to refer to me as an
'atheist' is down to intentional bigotry and not simply mindless stupidity.
Am I right?

[I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!]

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank
Yes. In Midjis' world, "God intended for man to make the wrong choice",
much like his parents intended for him to become an atheist troll, posting
idiocies to Christian NGs. He would blame his parents for everything he
did wrong, but never himself.

Would I indeed, Frank? I'm interested. Why not tell the group all about
the times I have done this. I'm sure they will be fascinated. I want
specific occasions, of course - otherwise (gods forbid) someone might think
you're just spouting groundless nonsense. And you wouldn't do that, would
you? You're a "pastor", after all. Tell them just how long we've known
each other, Frank. Tell them who I am, what I look like, where I went to
school - all those things that such a close acquaintance must know. Tell
them about my parents, whom you must know equally well. Then our readers
will know that your stories about how I'd blame my parents for everything
stem from direct knowledge.
Incidentally, I take it your persistence in continuing to refer to me as an
'atheist' is down to intentional bigotry and not simply mindless stupidity.
Am I right?

YOU'LL GET NO TRUTH FROM PASTOR FREAK-OR ANY OTHER JESUS JUNKIE FOR THAT
MATTER.
THEY WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT RAN THEM DOWN IN THE STREETS.
TRUTH AND REALITY DO NOT MIX WITH THESE ASSHOLES.

[Midjis]

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
YOU'LL GET NO TRUTH FROM PASTOR FREAK-OR ANY OTHER JESUS JUNKIE FOR THAT
MATTER.
THEY WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT RAN THEM DOWN IN THE STREETS.
TRUTH AND REALITY DO NOT MIX WITH THESE ASSHOLES.

Truth where religion is concerned is always open to interpretation. But
there is a difference between judging the truth of a belief (or not) in
gods, which is by nature subjective, and the use of clear untruths, as in
Frank's case here. He does not know me, yet makes statements about how I
relate to my parents...? That is simple dishonesty - another feeble tactic
in a cheap and mendacious repertoire.

There are some who have more respect for basic honesty than others. There
are those who can be faithful to what they believe, and can remain honest
about their beliefs even when they conflict with those of others. These I
cannot classify as you do. Even those who would argue with me until their
Kingdom come, so long as they do it without resorting to intentional
falsehood. But others... Well, others are perhaps more, shall we say,
difficult to get along with. Perhaps I wouldn't have used your exact
phrasing, but...

[Pastor Frank]

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank
Yes. In Midjis' world, "God intended for man to make the wrong
choice", much like his parents intended for him to become an atheist
troll, posting idiocies to Christian NGs. He would blame his parents
for everything he did wrong, but never himself.

Would I indeed, Frank? I'm interested. Why not tell the group all about
the times I have done this. I'm sure they will be fascinated. I want
specific occasions, of course - otherwise (gods forbid) someone might

think

Post by Midjis
you're just spouting groundless nonsense. And you wouldn't do that, would
you? You're a "pastor", after all. Tell them just how long we've known
each other, Frank. Tell them who I am, what I look like, where I went to
school - all those things that such a close acquaintance must know. Tell
them about my parents, whom you must know equally well. Then our readers
will know that your stories about how I'd blame my parents for everything
stem from direct knowledge.
Incidentally, I take it your persistence in continuing to refer to me as
an 'atheist' is down to intentional bigotry and not simply mindless
stupidity. Am I right?

YOU'LL GET NO TRUTH FROM PASTOR FREAK-OR ANY OTHER JESUS JUNKIE FOR THAT
MATTER.
THEY WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT RAN THEM DOWN IN THE STREETS.
TRUTH AND REALITY DO NOT MIX WITH THESE ASSHOLES.

Neither of you ever post anything to the glory of God, but only to the
shame of man, which is atheism. You hate our God and us Christians, pure and
simple. Kindly post atheism and hate to atheist and hate groups, but by all
means, post your respect, love and adoration of God to our Christian NGs.
Thanks.

[ZenIsWhen]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank
Yes. In Midjis' world, "God intended for man to make the wrong
choice", much like his parents intended for him to become an atheist
troll, posting idiocies to Christian NGs. He would blame his parents
for everything he did wrong, but never himself.

Would I indeed, Frank? I'm interested. Why not tell the group all about
the times I have done this. I'm sure they will be fascinated. I want
specific occasions, of course - otherwise (gods forbid) someone might

think

Post by Midjis
you're just spouting groundless nonsense. And you wouldn't do that, would
you? You're a "pastor", after all. Tell them just how long we've known
each other, Frank. Tell them who I am, what I look like, where I went to
school - all those things that such a close acquaintance must know.

Tell

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!

Post by Midjis
them about my parents, whom you must know equally well. Then our readers
will know that your stories about how I'd blame my parents for everything
stem from direct knowledge.
Incidentally, I take it your persistence in continuing to refer to me as
an 'atheist' is down to intentional bigotry and not simply mindless
stupidity. Am I right?

YOU'LL GET NO TRUTH FROM PASTOR FREAK-OR ANY OTHER JESUS JUNKIE FOR THAT
MATTER.
THEY WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT RAN THEM DOWN IN THE STREETS.
TRUTH AND REALITY DO NOT MIX WITH THESE ASSHOLES.

Neither of you ever post anything to the glory of God, but only to the
shame of man, which is atheism.

Ignorant zealots are the shame of man .. and you are one.

[I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!

Post by Midjis

Post by Pastor Frank
Yes. In Midjis' world, "God intended for man to make the wrong
choice", much like his parents intended for him to become an atheist
troll, posting idiocies to Christian NGs. He would blame his parents
for everything he did wrong, but never himself.

Would I indeed, Frank? I'm interested. Why not tell the group all about
the times I have done this. I'm sure they will be fascinated. I want
specific occasions, of course - otherwise (gods forbid) someone might

think

Post by Midjis
you're just spouting groundless nonsense. And you wouldn't do that, would
you? You're a "pastor", after all. Tell them just how long we've known
each other, Frank. Tell them who I am, what I look like, where I went to
school - all those things that such a close acquaintance must know.

Tell

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!

Post by Midjis
them about my parents, whom you must know equally well. Then our readers
will know that your stories about how I'd blame my parents for everything
stem from direct knowledge.
Incidentally, I take it your persistence in continuing to refer to me as
an 'atheist' is down to intentional bigotry and not simply mindless
stupidity. Am I right?

YOU'LL GET NO TRUTH FROM PASTOR FREAK-OR ANY OTHER JESUS JUNKIE FOR THAT
MATTER.
THEY WOULD NOT KNOW THE TRUTH IF IT RAN THEM DOWN IN THE STREETS.
TRUTH AND REALITY DO NOT MIX WITH THESE ASSHOLES.

Neither of you ever post anything to the glory of God, but only to the
shame of man, which is atheism. You hate our God and us Christians, pure and
simple. Kindly post atheism and hate to atheist and hate groups, but by all
means, post your respect, love and adoration of God to our Christian NGs.
Thanks.

hey ding dong-I can't hate what does not exist-I hate you Christians because
you try to take my freedom.
I hate you for your lies and deceit.
I hate your murderous past.
grow a brain-no such thing as a god.
you and your kind wish to take the world back into the dark age's.
I will not allow you freaks of nature to do that.
you will never have the power you bastards had in the past.never again.
I learn from history-apparently you do not.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
I hate you Christians because
you try to take my freedom.
I hate you for your lies and deceit.
I hate your murderous past.
I learn from history-apparently you do not.

Apparently, you mistake Roman Catholicism for Christianity.


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by Pastor Frank
Neither of you ever post anything to the glory of God, but only to the
shame of man, which is atheism. You hate our God and us Christians, pure
and simple.

You're wrong. I don't hate your God, and I don't hate you. I certainly
don't hate "Christians" in general. I don't much like you, Frank, I admit
that freely. Or at least, to be more specific, I don't like the way you
behave on this group and the atrociously low standards you set as a
so-called "pastor". I don't trust you because I think your interests are
more self-serving than in the service of God. That's why you continue to
try to exert control over these groups - because you think you're more
important than others and that you should have the power to do so.

And you've made it more than clear that you don't like me: your total
disregard of things I've told you about myself; your utter disrespect for my
beliefs (illustrated by your persistence in referring to me as an
"atheist"); your arrogant and conceited attitude; and your absolute failure
to understand that the two labelled slots you appear to have in your mind
don't necessarily accommodate all the world's people.

I have the utmost respect for most Christians. I have less than complete
respect for those for whom Christianity is simply a means to further inflate
their own egos.

Post by Pastor Frank
Kindly post atheism and hate to atheist and hate groups, but by all means,
post your respect, love and adoration of God to our Christian NGs. Thanks.

Finally, as I will always fail to get through to you, these groups are not
yours, they never have been yours, and they never will be yours.

[The Magic Rat]

Post by wmech
And why does your god punish obviously innocent children? And how could all
of the over 200,000 that died in the recent Asian tsunami all be sinners. It
included 100,000 children and many so called "holy people".
Bill

We're still paying for the sin of Adam (eating an apple). God should
just let it go. Seriously.

A few nights ago I unwisely left a cheeseburger of mine unattended at
dog's eye level. Not surprisingly, my dog helped himself to it! My
response was extremely ungodly. I didn't kick him out of the house for
all eternity. And I'm certainly not dedicating the rest of my
existence to punishing all the other dogs in the world for his one
transgression.

I just laughed at him and at myself. I realized that I unwittingly had
set him up to fail. How could I punish him when I'm at fault for
causing the mistake?

God, too, is guilty for setting up the human race to fail, but He won't
accept responsibility for it. Rather, He continues to punish us for
His mistake and blames it on us.

[I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!]

Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.

believing in a myth like a god fallacy noted.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.

Ironic, given that the ones asking the questins are thee ones blaming
God.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
believing in a myth like a god fallacy noted.

Believing in a myth like evolution fallacy noted.


Curtis

[I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.

Ironic, given that the ones asking the questins are thee ones blaming
God.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
believing in a myth like a god fallacy noted.

Believing in a myth like evolution fallacy noted.

seeing evolution at work everyday is hardly a fallacy.
your fallacy is that you think you are intelligent-but that is just a
fallacy.
in other words-YOU ARE STUPID-AND YOUR TOO STUPID TO REALIZE THAT YOU
ARE,INDEED,STUPID.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
seeing evolution at work everyday is hardly a fallacy.

You see single-celled organisms become warm-blooded mammals every day?

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
YOU ARE STUPID
TOO STUPID
STUPID.

<sarcasm> Very convincing argument. </sarcasm>


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
seeing evolution at work everyday is hardly a fallacy.

You see single-celled organisms become warm-blooded mammals every day?

You are aware, are you not, that the medical profession is currently
struggling with a proliferation of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria?
And that this problem is accelerated due to overprescription?

Do you know why this problem has occurred? Do you know WHY bacteria are
becoming resistant to medicines? That's right: survival of the fittest.
Darwin - in your face, up close and personal. If there was no evolution,
this problem would not have arisen.

[wmech]

Congratulations. Your logic supported by facts instead of myths is
overwhelming!

Your logic and reasoning is very refreshing.

Bill

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
seeing evolution at work everyday is hardly a fallacy.

You see single-celled organisms become warm-blooded mammals every day?

You are aware, are you not, that the medical profession is currently
struggling with a proliferation of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria?
And that this problem is accelerated due to overprescription?
Do you know why this problem has occurred? Do you know WHY bacteria are
becoming resistant to medicines? That's right: survival of the fittest.
Darwin - in your face, up close and personal. If there was no evolution,
this problem would not have arisen.

[c***@yahoo.com]

Post by Midjis

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by I KILLED YOUR GOD-IT WAS EASY!
seeing evolution at work everyday is hardly a fallacy.

You see single-celled organisms become warm-blooded mammals every day?

You are aware, are you not, that the medical profession is currently
struggling with a proliferation of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria?
And that this problem is accelerated due to overprescription?
Do you know why this problem has occurred? Do you know WHY bacteria are
becoming resistant to medicines? That's right: survival of the fittest.
Darwin - in your face, up close and personal. If there was no evolution,
this problem would not have arisen.

I have no problem with a monkey evolving into a better monkey, as long
as he remains a monkey. I'm still waiting for the repeatable lab
experiment that shows a monkey giving birth to a man.

I don't deny evolution in its entirety, only the notion of a reptile
evolving into a mammal. Or a single-celled organism evolving into an
elephant. Once I see this demonstrated before my eyes, I will become a
convert to the religion of Evolution.

What part of "You see single-celled organisms become warm-blooded
mammals every day?" did you not comprehend?


Curtis

[Midjis]

Post by c***@yahoo.com
I have no problem with a monkey evolving into a better monkey, as long
as he remains a monkey. I'm still waiting for the repeatable lab
experiment that shows a monkey giving birth to a man.
I don't deny evolution in its entirety, only the notion of a reptile
evolving into a mammal. Or a single-celled organism evolving into an
elephant.

How about reptiles turning into birds? Can you bring yourself to pick up
a book on dinosaurs? Then a book on birds? Now compare the two and see
if you can work it out.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
Once I see this demonstrated before my eyes, I will become
a convert to the religion of Evolution.

You won't see it demonstrated before your eyes, unless you can find some
way to become immortal - or unless you're willing to accept that there's
a 'bigger picture' than you or me.

I suspect you know enough about evolution to know this, and that you gain
reassurance from it.

Post by c***@yahoo.com
What part of "You see single-celled organisms become warm-blooded
mammals every day?" did you not comprehend?

Do you find you have to concentrate to keep up this level of
pretentiousness, or are you sufficiently well practised that it comes
easily?

[Pastor Frank]

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent
children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are
some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some
born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations
designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.
-- [snip of repeated questions] --

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man)
that need to kill and eat other animals to survive?

Same answer.

Post by wmech
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be
a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

So it appears, if you choose to see Him that way.

Post by wmech
If he treats us so cruelly during life

"Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.
It was _Man_ who sinned. God just gave Man the choice.

Post by wmech
why do you think, if we kiss his ring, he will let us enjoy
peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

Because He said so.

No. God is our Father which is in heaven in more ways than one. Sons
don't kiss rings of their fathers, but they love their dad as their dad
loves them. Though we are all children of the most high, only the "sons of
God" will be with Him in the Kingdom of God. Others cannot, will not and
don't want to.

Pastor Frank

"GOD" The Christian meaning of the word according to scripture:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

[Paul Duca]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent
children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are
some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some
born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations
designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.
-- [snip of repeated questions] --

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man)
that need to kill and eat other animals to survive?

Same answer.

Post by wmech
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be
a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

So it appears, if you choose to see Him that way.

Post by wmech
If he treats us so cruelly during life

"Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.
It was _Man_ who sinned. God just gave Man the choice.

Post by wmech
why do you think, if we kiss his ring, he will let us enjoy
peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

Because He said so.

No. God is our Father which is in heaven in more ways than one. Sons
don't kiss rings of their fathers, but they love their dad as their dad
loves them.

Despite the fact He beats them mercilessly...


Paul

[wmech]

Post by Pastor Frank

Post by c***@yahoo.com

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring
intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes,
Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.

Post by wmech
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally innocent
children to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a
fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are
some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some
born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations
designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?

Because Man sinned and brought a curse upon this realm.
-- [snip of repeated questions] --

Post by wmech
Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man)
that need to kill and eat other animals to survive?

Same answer.

Post by wmech
It would appear that your loving and caring god must actually be
a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant.

So it appears, if you choose to see Him that way.

Post by wmech
If he treats us so cruelly during life

"Blame It All On God" fallacy noted.
It was _Man_ who sinned. God just gave Man the choice.

Post by wmech
why do you think, if we kiss his ring, he will let us enjoy
peace in his eternal Heaven after death?

Because He said so.

No. God is our Father which is in heaven in more ways than one. Sons
don't kiss rings of their fathers, but they love their dad as their dad
loves them. Though we are all children of the most high, only the "sons of
God" will be with Him in the Kingdom of God. Others cannot, will not and
don't want to.
Pastor Frank

You provide no obejective evidence of your gods existence. The Bibles are
inconsistent
incoherent myths written by unknown men of unknown veracity. The Bible
stories are about as
believable as the Wizard of Oz!

Post by Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

[Nick]

There is nothing else.