The simplest and most obvious evidence that there are no REAL gods is the [god itself?]
V:
While your argument makes sense, more sense than many theist's
arguments make, it is still speculation.
Once we admit that we do not know, but are speculating, then you must
admit that you are agnostic on the subject.
When I left Catholicism I surveyed the God arena for what higher
powers there really were, after deciding Yahweh was man made. If you
bother to read the rest of my post you will see that two Gods come
into play with our lives Bill.
Every atheist serves two Gods. And in reality, these Gods require
worship from all humans whether they be atheists or theists. The 'God
of Inner Peace' is the first God. Without serving this God of Inner
Peace man will turn to self destruction and suicide. The other God is
that of the 'God of Nature' which makes itself evident with it natural
laws or commandments. No matter how defiant the atheist or theist
is...we will ALL bow to the God of Nature sooner or later.
Speaking of nature, it is also good to keep in touch with the lesser
cousin of the God of Nature which is seeking peace with our own nature
through right actions. Yes, learning to accept the nature of all
things is an important part of the equation for living a life at
peace, but there is a missing link that needs to be added to this
equation. The missing link is marrying authenticity with rightness.
The formula for success is: Authentic Nature + Right Actions = Peace
The formula for failure is: Authentic Nature + Wrong Actions =
Destruction
There are many 'natures' in our life to be mindful of - we have our
own nature, the nature other persons we have contact with, as well as
the 'nature' of nature itself. But, just becoming a 'blissninny' and
blindly accepting the various natures will not give us peace. To apply
this tool rightly, we need to adopt a life of proportionality, balance
and wisdom. How do we learn to live a more balanced life? By using
rational thought patterns and by putting reason before passion. Then
we can view our actions as balanced or not, for without rational
thought we have nothing to weigh in our quest for balance.
Knowing what is true and developing wisdom to be at peace are two very
important qualities for the confused spiritual practitioner to
develop. With respect to myself, I try to balance wisdom with that of
peace perception. For whether something is a truth or not, it still
has to pass the peace test. There are many things that are true and
good in life, but they will still end up destroying my peace if I let
them. Usually the dividing line for such 'good today ~ bad tomorrow'
questions are rooted in the area of balance and proportionality.
If you don't know what I am talking about, then I will give you this
example. we need water to drink and air to breath in order to live.
But, even though water and air are life sustaining, too much water and
too much air will become life destroying...proportionality and balance
divides life from death. I always ask if a person, place, thing or
activity promotes my peace or destroys my peace? When I practice
compassion for others as my Buddhist practice recommends, I ask this
same question of peace promotion or peace destruction of others. I
look deeply to see what is destroying the other persons peace the best
I am able to. There are 3 main components to rational thinking.
1 - Rationality requires reflection.
Many of us are too busy to reflect. Other times our minds our consumed
with troubles and out of control passions. Over thinking also plays a
part in keeping our minds working in the wrong direction. An old
Buddhist saying tells us that a constantly busy mind cannot heal
itself. Reflection time must be 'open thinking' time where we look at
both ends of the spectrum and everything in between for answers and
choices and not just the comfortable ones we are accustomed to. We
cannot solve our problems with the same thinking that we used when we
created them. Psychologist William James once said, "A great many
people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging
their prejudices."
2- Rationality is the ability to anticipate consequences.
Reflection pays big part in this as well as past experiences and the
process of extrapolation from past experiences and others mistakes.
Weighing and balancing are two key words that come into play.
Sometimes 'gambling' is more a component to those that 'shoot from the
hip' and worry about consequences later. Many of us get stuck in a
place of justifying our actions with blindness to the consequences.
Our actions are ego based and not truth or rational based. "First one
decides the goal, then one gathers the principles or delusions to
justify reaching this goal." Principles or delusions? This depends on
whether the mind is being used for rational thought or if out of
control passions are in command.
3 - Rationality requires adherence to certain standards.
There are many standards to consider and each individual has to judge
these for themselves. Another name for a standard is a rule. Many
people are defiant against 'rules' and they are entitled to not follow
the rules as they please. But such freedom has a price to pay, so they
should not balk at paying the price for their freedom with the
necessary consequences that come from not following the rules.
Standards are different for each area of excellence that we seek to
attain. The standards for excellence in rock climbing are different
from those of a scuba diver. Professional standards of an engineer
will be different from societal standards of being a good parent. But
one thing is certain. If we are defiant and balk against these
standards we will probably be headed for failure or even death in
certain activities. (Failure? This cannot be said in 100% of the
cases, for without such experimentation and digression inventors would
not produce much. But in generally acceptable terms, standards usually
have to be followed. If you balk at following standards then go back
to component 1 and do some reflection as to why?)
Now just turning to Buddhism is not all it takes if your goal is to
live a flourishing human life. Yes, Buddhism contain many truths, but
it also contains many non truths as well.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=9.0
But isn't that how man made religion is? It all comes from imperfect
man so imperfect man can never make anything as complex as religious
thought perfect?
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=318.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0
Yet, we as humans must still serve the God of Peace or we will self-
destruct , so we must give it our 'best efforts' irrespective of how
imperfect those efforts are. A simple tool to smooth out the everyday
fluctuations in our life is: forget perfection and look for direction.
We can either be going up, down or sideways with our goals. Use this
direction tool to get a quick gauge of your inner spiritual
condition.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=91.0
Accepting a persons nature must always be balanced with rational
thought as I said above. We can accept another's natures as an abuser
and be at peace that they have this nature, but we do not have to stay
in close proximity of them ourselves. The missing link so to speak
with the blissninny that accepts everything blindly is they are
neglecting to align ones authentic nature with that of finding inner
peace. The serenity prayer tells us we have 2 possibilities to find
peace...by Change or by Acceptance. We should always seek out change
for the most part and practice acceptance as the last resort. That is
the general rule. Change first - Accept later. For without feeling
anger or discontent we wound not seek out change - as in changing our
environment that might be an unhealthy one for us. So, we should never
regret feeling anger, but just as anger and excretion are two
naturally occurring parts of being a human, we should let them serve
us instead of we being enslaved to them.
In SCA they have a tool called abstention. They abstain the best way
they can from people places or things they have found to be
detrimental to their recovery program efforts from past experience
with them. My recovery success is based a lot on abstaining from
people, places and things that do not mesh well with me and if I
cannot avoid them, then I work to make the unavoidable fit better by
changing things on my end. Yes, we cannot change others, but we do
usually have control of ourselves and how we participate in dealing
with others. Even though we cannot completely change or wipe our many
problem areas in our life we can usually change *some* aspects of most
problems to make them more bearable. So, I am always looking for small
changes to make in the right direction and this recovery orientation
towards the direction of change helps by giving hope of possible
larger future change as well.
When Socrates was a young man he had to make a decision to make with
which road to take in his own study of philosophical knowledge. He
looked at his predecessors and their study of science and nature and
also weighed his talents in this area. His conclusion? "I am not of
the nature to study nature." Socrates was at peace with his own
nature. We only have so much of 'us' to spend, so spend it wisely.
Fighting ones authentic nature spends our time and energies unwisely.
The serenity prayer gives us the answer, "God / Higher Power, grant me
the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to
change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."
We can see this battle over accepting others nature happening all the
time with the sexes. Many women say they can't understand men, just as
many men say they can't understand women. In the bible it says that
God's way is not man's way. Well, to further distill this we can say
that God's way is not man's way and man's way is not woman's way.
Every creature has it's way and when you can come to peace with this
you will be on your own way to accepting life on life's terms and not
your own. To start on your peace journey look for insight into the
other creatures suffering and problems. Each sex has their strong and
weak points just as the yin and yang dictates. To change this would be
to change the underlying duties and essence of that creature. It is of
their nature for men and women to be men wand women. "Were I a
nightingale, I would act the part of a nightingale; were I a swan, the
part of a swan." ~ Epictetus
I had a mentor that I held in high esteem for his various talents in
sports. As he aged he started to get back problems. One sport he
excelled in was kayaking. Kayaking eventually had a particularly bad
affect on back problems. At age 51, I cannot sit in a hard-shell
whitewater boat for longer than 10 or 15 minutes before my back starts
bothering me. This fellow had the same issues. What did I do with my
back problem and kayaking? I accepted my nature and went to inflatable
kayaks and can kayak for a few hours with only moderate back problems.
What did my mentor do? He continued with hard-shell kayaking and made
himself so uncomfortable he saw no other choice other that to kill
himself and he blew his brains out. My mentor did not have the ability
to accept ones changing nature. No flexibility gives us no hope and we
get locked into tunnel vision with death as being the only option from
escaping our pain.
Accept others nature helps when we apply live and let live. It becomes
much easier to do once we accept our own nature, then we can apply a
little of this acceptance to anthers right to exist. The Buddhist tool
of compassion helps as well. It reminds me to look for insight into he
other persons suffering. When we spend out time looking for insight
into their suffering it does not leave much time for building up
hatred against them. The two do not mix well. we cannot develop
compassion and hatred for someone at the same time.
On some discussion lists the topics have come up of doing good for
others. It seems some list members are not at peace with doing good.
Whether they feel like they must be obligated to do or give a certain
amount of themselves or their money. Or they feel something is wrong
with them for not wanting to do more good, as society 'puts' the
goodness conciseness on them. We are NOT required to do a certain
amount of 'good' for others. I would say we are required to not harm
others if we desire to be at peace. In my own case, I donate a very
small amount of money to charity and I give very little time to
volunteer work. I give what is comfortable and natural for me to give.
But, I do donate good in an area that is authentic and not forced for
me with writing my posts and planting seeds of peace in others. As I
plant the seeds in others, I water my own seeds of peace, so I get
double benefits. Find your own strengths in this area, do what is
natural and authentic for you. If you are uncomfortable with your life
write on it to clarify what you would like to get on it. The world
needs all sorts...for balance.
You can get some clarity on the authenticity issue if you ask yourself
why you wish to do something? What is your driving force? Do you act
from fear or act from desire of begins at peace? Don't let others
dictate your balance point to you. Just as no one could dictate to you
when you have had enough to eat or drink, or how much money you have
to spend. so it goes that no one can tell you how much of you that
must be spent in the world to try to do good. The decision must come
from within you. My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray -
there goes my peace - it is my choice. Put your inner peace foremost
and you will have your answer. Fear or guilt based reasons for acting
are not authentic and genuine. The persons actions are based on
negative consequences otherwise they would not do them. I see this a
lot on the Buddhist and Christian oriented discussion boards the
practitioners are worried they will develop bad karma or go to hell
for a mis-step. They are not worried about peace...they are worried
about pain. "People that practice religion are worried about going to
hell - people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and
don't want to go back." As I will tell you below in the section on
Heidegger, "When you align real and authentic actions with those that
promote inner peace you are moving closer to enlightenment."
Another area of nature that some disregard is that of natural law. I
find that sometime spiritual practitioners neglect the natural laws
that govern our bodies and suffer in this area from lack of living a
balanced life. Some of us forget we are spiritual beings residing in
physical bodies living in physical world and governed and as such are
governed by the following 3 branches of laws:
1 - Natural or physical laws
2 - Man made laws
3 - Divine or spiritual laws
Proportionality and balance used to be taught in ancient Greek
educational curriculum. Unfortunately, these studies have gone the way
of the dinosaurs. There is no one magic bullet in life that will fix
all our problems. Living a good life is composed of many qualities
and when we reach for one thing only with thoughts of disregarding the
rest of life's laws we will be out of balance. To be at peace is a
natural ability that is instilled within us all - you only have to
become balanced to be at peace. When Socrates was in his cell awaiting
execution, his friend Crito visited him offering plans of escape and
the resources of many of Socrates friends to help him set up a new
life away from Athens. Socrates responded to Crito, "My friend Crito,
your zeal is invaluable, if a right one; but if wrong, the greater the
zeal the greater the evil..."
Socrates accepted his fate and practiced virtue by being at peace and
living within the 3 branches of laws that governed him. This is what
the author James Allen had in mind with his famous quote from his book
"As a Man Thinketh" ~ "Circumstances do not make the man - they revel
him to himself." Manmade law imprisoned Socrates and man made laws
sentenced him to death. Socrates chose not to break the law, even when
it was a simple task to escape with the help of his friends and live
instead of die. For Socrates, circumstances did not make him into
anything other than what he 'genuinely' was.
If your an atheist or agnostic, you may not think much of divine or
spiritual laws, but you still have to answer to natural and man made
laws. Don't get confused by the term spiritual. I am not always
referring to organized religion when I use such terms. Atheist or not,
there are many mysteries in the world. The spiritual studies deals
with such mysteries, for the root of spiritualism is that of the
unseen and the force behind it all. Some people say they can defy man
made laws as well as divine laws, but no matter how defiant the person
or addict is - no one escapes natural laws. To be successful in life
we have to put some effort in spiritual work and some effort in
physical work for a good balance as well as be mindful of not
violating manmade laws.
It is by restructuring my life to accept and live within all these
laws that I have been able to find much peace...by living within my
means. My prior life was just the opposite. I lived a life that
violated all 3 branches of these laws. As I wrote in my earlier post
'Putting Peace First' ..."All our actions have consequences and many
of these actions are producing consequences that rob us of inner
peace." If we expect to escape from the consequences of ALL our
actions - that is delusional thinking. Desire plays a big part in
guiding our actions. If we have a constant supply of never ending
desires that end in the disruption of our peace what chance have we to
find serenity? To find peace I had to rework my life when it came to
excessive desires as well as being mindful of living within these 3
branches of laws.
Accepting ones nature as well as the nature of others is not the total
answer to the mystery of being at peace. Yes, we can accept our
nature, but if our nature continues to be that of peace destroying
instead of peace promoting, then some additional work needs to be
done. Sometimes we can have a say at our nature and other times we
cannot. Martin Heidegger, a famous existentialist philosopher wrote
much on authenticity. While Heidegger could be arguably be said to
have 'written the book' on authenticity and genuineness, Heidegger was
also a Nazi supporter. Now, we can sometimes blame such affiliation on
design, such as being forced against our will. But in this case,
Heidegger seemed to be a Nazi by desire and not one by design. I
discussed this in an earlier post 'Addict by design ~ Addict by
Desire'
For authenticity and genuineness to be of real value, they must also
be in the 'right direction' as the Buddhists set fourth in the
eightfold path. Yes, Heidegger new about authenticity, he seemed
authentic and genuine in his actions, but fell short of the other half
of the equation of marrying authenticity with 'right' actions.
Heidegger accepted his nature, but his natural and authentic nature
was one that was not that of 'peace promoting' in nature within
himself, nor peace promoting for others. Academic smarts are no
guarantee of peace smarts. As I wrote in my own post on authenticity,
"When you align real and authentic actions with those that promote
inner peace you are moving closer to enlightenment."
BTW, if you made a study of such a person as Heidegger while looking
into the subject of authenticity. Would finding our his Nazi
affiliations blind or prejudice you to what he had to say about
authenticity? Would you spend your time trying to 'prove him wrong' to
make your ego right? If you liked the philosophy of Aristotle, but
discovered Aristotle promoted slavery. Would that blind you to all of
his teaching? The nature of humans is that they are imperfect. If we
only seek out perfect humans to learn from the pickings will be
slim...really the pickings will be zero. But, even with all our
imperfections, many of us contain small perfection's to learn from if
the student is willing to look for them and be open when they surface.
The answer to these question of prejudicial blindness will tell you a
lot about your own nature. If your nature is that of passion before
reason and a tendency to being blinded to the truth due to prejudice,
then reread what I wrote in my earlier post 'Our Guiding light
Prejudice or Truth' Always remember, truth stands on it own and is
without political or religious affiliations ... just as nature
rules ... so does truth.
Accepting one authentic nature, balancing authenticity with doing
good, not harboring hatred or fear, being generous and compassionate
to others, being at peace within and with all - these are all
qualities of the enlightened mind. When Socrates was leaving his trial
after being condemned to death he had these parting words. I'll leave
you with them as they show how one man applied the equation of
Authentic Nature + Right Actions = Peace (Translated by Benjamin
Jowett)
"Wherefore, O judges, be of good cheer about death, and know this of a
truth - that no evil can happen to a good man, either in life or after
death. He and his are not neglected by the gods; nor has my own
approaching end happened by mere chance. But I see clearly that to die
and be released was better for me; and therefore the oracle gave no
sign. For which reason also, I am not angry with my accusers, or my
condemners; they have done me no harm, although neither of them meant
to do me any good; and for this I may gently blame them.
Still I have a favor to ask of them. When my sons are grown up, I
would ask you, O my friends, to punish them; and I would have you
trouble them, as I have troubled you, if they seem to care about
riches, or anything, more than about virtue; or if they pretend to be
something when they are really nothing - then rebuke them, as I have
rebuked you, for not caring about that for which they ought to care
and for thinking that they are something, when they are really
nothing. And if you do this, I and my sons will have received justice
at your hands.
The hour of departure has arrived, and we go our ways - I to die, and
you to live. Which is better God only knows."
Take Care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
For free access to my earlier posts on voluntary simplicity,
compulsive spending, debting, compulsive overeating and clutter write:
***@aol.com. Any opinion expressed here is that of my own and is not
the opinion, recommendation or belief of any group or organization.