Discussion:
Question for true believers
(too old to reply)
Bill
2005-06-05 20:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the thousands of
God beliefs that their God is a real God?

I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture.
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
2005-06-06 03:44:58 UTC
Permalink
I'm surprised the religious fruitcakes haven't quoted some bible verses on
this one, of wait, no wonder they haven't, you asked for FACTS !
AR
2005-06-06 04:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the thousands of
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture.
Bill,

After spending the last few days reading the messages in this group, I
have reached the opinion that your type of question will get you
nothing but bible babble. I believe that one of the major factors
driving christains in their belief of something that doesn't exist is
the reward of eternal life. That is a tough one to give up. Of course
the other one is being the main course at a bar-b-q in that fairy land
called hell. I am sure you also know that the christian religion isn't
the only religion to hand out pats on the back or kicks to the butt. It
is a tool to control the belivers and keep them in line.

Also, we both know there is no proof that any god of any religion has
ever existed, pagan or otherwise. The christain religion is just a
continuation of the pagan religions that were out there first. One day
in the far future, which we will not live to see, christianity will
become just another pagan religion that failed.

Anyway, good luck on getting any answer that might make sense.

Art
Carl Rooker
2005-06-06 14:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by AR
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the thousands of
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture.
Bill,
After spending the last few days reading the messages in this group, I
have reached the opinion that your type of question will get you
nothing but bible babble. I believe that one of the major factors
driving christains in their belief of something that doesn't exist is
the reward of eternal life. That is a tough one to give up. Of course
the other one is being the main course at a bar-b-q in that fairy land
called hell. I am sure you also know that the christian religion isn't
the only religion to hand out pats on the back or kicks to the butt. It
is a tool to control the belivers and keep them in line.
Shows how little you understand what you are talking about. Although the
afterlife is a part of the Gospel, this is not the reason we believe in the
Gospel.
Why we believe is that God keeps His promise to establish a living
relationship with Him.

If you would bother to read the Bible, you would find far less about the
afterlife than you would find about this life, and God's willingness to live
it in you.
Post by AR
Also, we both know there is no proof that any god of any religion has
ever existed, pagan or otherwise. The christain religion is just a
continuation of the pagan religions that were out there first. One day
in the far future, which we will not live to see, christianity will
become just another pagan religion that failed.
Again, demonstrating your lack of knowlege of what you are talking about.

God Bless
Carl
AR
2005-06-06 15:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Carl,

My problem is that I do read the bible and a number of things in the
"good book" seem to indicate that god is anything but a loving, caring,
forgiving god. How do you explain 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB, Exodus 35:2, and
Lev.25:44. God doesn't seem to have any issue with killing innocent
human beings or anything else that gets in his way. Why didn't he
punish David for killing one of his soldiers so he could get at his
wife? Instead, god kills the innocent child that was the result of
their adultery. Isn't that kind of like catching a bank robber and you
punish him by killing the bank tellers?

If I demonstrated a lack of knowledge about proof of gods, why don't
you demonstrate all you wonderful knowledge of god and answer Bill's
question. The current answer you gave could, and does, apply to any
religion on earth. Bill doesn't want your opinion or religious
rambling, he wants hard evidence.

One other question, if god is so good why does Stalin have a better
chance at being in heaven than Gandhi?
c***@yahoo.com
2005-06-06 21:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by AR
How do you explain 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB, Exodus 35:2, and
Lev.25:44.
They're all in the Old Testament, innit?

That's how I explain it. In the OT, Jesus hadn't yet given his life,
so there was no Mediator betwixt God and Man.
Post by AR
God doesn't seem to have any issue with killing innocent
human beings
There is no such thing as an "innocent human being". That's just a
contruct of Man.
Post by AR
One other question, if god is so good why does Stalin have a better
chance at being in heaven than Gandhi?
Because there is a "better chance" that Stalin was forgiven and Ghandi
was not.


Curtis
AR
2005-06-06 22:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Curtis,

Thanks for the answer. Just what I would expect from a dumb ass
christian.
c***@yahoo.com
2005-06-07 20:57:06 UTC
Permalink
dumb ass christian.
Thanks for your answer. Just what I expected from a narrow-minded
buffoon.


Curtis
Carl Rooker
2005-06-11 15:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by AR
Carl,
My problem is that I do read the bible and a number of things in the
"good book" seem to indicate that god is anything but a loving, caring,
forgiving god. How do you explain 1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB, Exodus 35:2, and
Lev.25:44. God doesn't seem to have any issue with killing innocent
human beings or anything else that gets in his way. Why didn't he
punish David for killing one of his soldiers so he could get at his
wife? Instead, god kills the innocent child that was the result of
their adultery. Isn't that kind of like catching a bank robber and you
punish him by killing the bank tellers?
If I demonstrated a lack of knowledge about proof of gods, why don't
you demonstrate all you wonderful knowledge of god and answer Bill's
question. The current answer you gave could, and does, apply to any
religion on earth. Bill doesn't want your opinion or religious
rambling, he wants hard evidence.
One other question, if god is so good why does Stalin have a better
chance at being in heaven than Gandhi?
Another misrepresentation. Stalin and Gandhi have the exact same chance of
getting to Heaven as anyone else does, including you..

That is, none what so ever, unless they repent their sins (before death) and
receive God's provision for forgiveness.
1SA 15:1 Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king
over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. 2 This
is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they
did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go,
attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them.
Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle
and sheep, camels and donkeys.' " NIV

God is punishing a people for a national sin. It may seem extreme that He
says to kill the children and infants, but that would be far kinder to them
to bring them to His Heaven than to allow them to starve to death after the
Just punishment of their parents.
EX 35:1 Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them,
"These are the things the LORD has commanded you to do: 2 For six days, work
is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest
to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. 3 Do not
light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

So what. He is giving a law here that the Israelites chose to accept.
Ex. 19:8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the LORD
has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the LORD. NIV

Which would be an exceedingly easy command to obey. Disobedience would have
been willful. Those who would have done so would hardly be innocent.
Now you may disagree with this, but the Israelites agreed to it, as I have
shown.

With the bastard child of David, I do find this hard. However, if God wants
to take a baby to heaven without them having to suffer the sins of life,
that is His choice. This child was much better off. We do not have the
right to take life, but the Giver of Life has every right, whether you agree
or not.

God Bless
Carl
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
2005-06-11 15:52:35 UTC
Permalink
"God is punishing a people for a national sin. It may seem extreme that He
says to kill the children and infants, but that would be far kinder to them
to bring them to His Heaven than to allow them to starve to death after the
Just punishment of their parents."

Religious jackasses get more fucking stupid by the day. So,. now you're
saying MURDER is perfectly acceptable?

Why the fucking hell would a "loving, caring" invisible shithole in the sky
MURDER children??. Why didn't he just take care of the kids, isn't he
all-powerful, huh, religiuos nutcase.

Seems like an ALL-POWERFUL supreme shithole in the sky could have found a
more constructive way to take care of the children than MURDERING THEM.

Has the loving, caring jackass in the sky not heard of
ADOPTION?????????

Hey, why don't we just all save people from their hellish life on earth,
I'll start, I'll send all of you religious shitheads to be with your loving,
caring shithole of a god.

save the planet, get rid of a religious crackpot today

BRING YOUR BULLSHIT INVISIBLE SHITHEAD god IN THE SKY TO ME SO I CAN KILL
HIM AND RID THIS PLANET OF INVISIBLE SHITHEAD god IN THE SKY ONCE AND FOR
ALL.
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
2005-06-06 22:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Carl,

tell your god to be at my house Tuesday morning 6/7, knock on my front door
at 7:30 a.m. so I can see this "invisible man in the sky" for myself.

otherwise, it will indicate that you have NO PROOF that the invisible man in
the sky exists, and that christianity is just a complete crock of shit
.

.
Bill
2005-06-07 16:12:07 UTC
Permalink
You have trouble reading, don't you.

My post said;

"I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture."

Or is it that you just can't offer a factual objective reply to the
question???
Post by Bill
Post by AR
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the
thousands of
Post by AR
Post by Bill
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence -
facts -
Post by AR
Post by Bill
not conjecture.
Bill,
After spending the last few days reading the messages in this group, I
have reached the opinion that your type of question will get you
nothing but bible babble. I believe that one of the major factors
driving christains in their belief of something that doesn't exist is
the reward of eternal life. That is a tough one to give up. Of course
the other one is being the main course at a bar-b-q in that fairy land
called hell. I am sure you also know that the christian religion isn't
the only religion to hand out pats on the back or kicks to the butt. It
is a tool to control the belivers and keep them in line.
Shows how little you understand what you are talking about. Although the
afterlife is a part of the Gospel, this is not the reason we believe in the
Gospel.
Why we believe is that God keeps His promise to establish a living
relationship with Him.
If you would bother to read the Bible, you would find far less about the
afterlife than you would find about this life, and God's willingness to live
it in you.
Post by AR
Also, we both know there is no proof that any god of any religion has
ever existed, pagan or otherwise. The christain religion is just a
continuation of the pagan religions that were out there first. One day
in the far future, which we will not live to see, christianity will
become just another pagan religion that failed.
Again, demonstrating your lack of knowlege of what you are talking about.
God Bless
Carl
Carl Rooker
2005-06-11 15:20:33 UTC
Permalink
No, your question was based upon a misrepresentation of what is believed,
not on anything valid.

No, I can not give any verifiable evidence to support your, ond others,
misrepresentation of what we believe.

What you have done is simply a continuation of the dishonesty on the part of
some in this ng, to try and get us to defend a misrepresentation, not our
belief.

I won't fall for that.

God Bless
Carl
Post by Bill
You have trouble reading, don't you.
My post said;
"I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture."
Or is it that you just can't offer a factual objective reply to the
question???
Post by Bill
Post by AR
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the
thousands of
Post by AR
Post by Bill
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence -
facts -
Post by AR
Post by Bill
not conjecture.
Bill,
After spending the last few days reading the messages in this group, I
have reached the opinion that your type of question will get you
nothing but bible babble. I believe that one of the major factors
driving christains in their belief of something that doesn't exist is
the reward of eternal life. That is a tough one to give up. Of course
the other one is being the main course at a bar-b-q in that fairy land
called hell. I am sure you also know that the christian religion isn't
the only religion to hand out pats on the back or kicks to the butt. It
is a tool to control the belivers and keep them in line.
Shows how little you understand what you are talking about. Although the
afterlife is a part of the Gospel, this is not the reason we believe in
the
Post by Bill
Gospel.
Why we believe is that God keeps His promise to establish a living
relationship with Him.
If you would bother to read the Bible, you would find far less about the
afterlife than you would find about this life, and God's willingness to
live
Post by Bill
it in you.
Post by AR
Also, we both know there is no proof that any god of any religion has
ever existed, pagan or otherwise. The christain religion is just a
continuation of the pagan religions that were out there first. One day
in the far future, which we will not live to see, christianity will
become just another pagan religion that failed.
Again, demonstrating your lack of knowlege of what you are talking about.
God Bless
Carl
SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim
2005-06-11 15:35:39 UTC
Permalink
so, you can provide no evidence of your "loving, caring" jackass in the sky.

fine, then all religion is forever banned from this planet, and I expect you
to fucking apologize for pushing your bullshit religious agenda on the
world.

I am glad you admit there is no physical proof for the existence of your
loving, caring invisible shithole in the sky, it is a step in the right
direction for you.
Bill
2005-06-11 20:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Rooker
No, your question was based upon a misrepresentation of what is believed,
not on anything valid.
No, I can not give any verifiable evidence to support your, ond others,
misrepresentation of what we believe.
What you have done is simply a continuation of the dishonesty on the part of
some in this ng, to try and get us to defend a misrepresentation, not our
belief.
I won't fall for that.
God Bless
Carl
As usual when you don't have an answer you side step and obfuscate the
issue.
=============================================================
"Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the thousands
of
God beliefs that their God is a real God?

I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture."
================================================================
Now where is this a MISREPRESENTATION of what people believe? It does not in
ANY
way state what people believe. It is a very basic simple question. It is NOT
a statement or
claim of anything.

I haven't misrepresented anyones beliefs. I haven't stated ANY beliefs.

Why don't you just be honest a admit you can't answer the question?

You are showing that your religious belief requires a certain level of
dishonesty.
Post by Carl Rooker
Post by Bill
You have trouble reading, don't you.
My post said;
"I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence -
facts -
Post by Bill
not conjecture."
Or is it that you just can't offer a factual objective reply to the
question???
Post by Bill
Post by AR
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the
thousands of
Post by AR
Post by Bill
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence -
facts -
Post by AR
Post by Bill
not conjecture.
Bill,
After spending the last few days reading the messages in this
group,
Post by Carl Rooker
I
Post by Bill
Post by Bill
Post by AR
have reached the opinion that your type of question will get you
nothing but bible babble. I believe that one of the major factors
driving christains in their belief of something that doesn't exist is
the reward of eternal life. That is a tough one to give up. Of course
the other one is being the main course at a bar-b-q in that fairy land
called hell. I am sure you also know that the christian religion isn't
the only religion to hand out pats on the back or kicks to the butt.
It
Post by Bill
Post by Bill
Post by AR
is a tool to control the belivers and keep them in line.
Shows how little you understand what you are talking about. Although
the
Post by Bill
Post by Bill
afterlife is a part of the Gospel, this is not the reason we believe in
the
Post by Bill
Gospel.
Why we believe is that God keeps His promise to establish a living
relationship with Him.
If you would bother to read the Bible, you would find far less about the
afterlife than you would find about this life, and God's willingness to
live
Post by Bill
it in you.
Post by AR
Also, we both know there is no proof that any god of any religion has
ever existed, pagan or otherwise. The christain religion is just a
continuation of the pagan religions that were out there first. One day
in the far future, which we will not live to see, christianity will
become just another pagan religion that failed.
Again, demonstrating your lack of knowlege of what you are talking
about.
Post by Bill
Post by Bill
God Bless
Carl
Carl Rooker
2005-06-06 14:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the thousands of
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence - facts -
not conjecture.
From reading your other posts, and the posts of many atheists on this ng, I
could not even meet your standard of evidence to prove that you exist. You
could be nothing more than random sun spot activity.

As a matter of fact, there is very little of anything that anyone knows
about anything that is based upon "objective evidence". 99.99% of what you
know and believe is not based upon actual experimentation, but on the
evidence of what someone told you about it. In some very small and
unimportant ways you may have experimented with what you have been told, and
you found it to be true, but most of what you think you know and believe is
based upon "Faith" in those who told you.

Now, the same thing applies to me. I did not come to believe in Jesus
Christ because I saw amazing things. I came to know Him because someone
shared their experience with me, and using a certain amount of trust in this
friend, I reached out, and found that what they had to say about Him was
true.

Basically what he shared with me is this;

That mankind, and myself were sinners.
This is quite obvious to me, since I have always been one to be picked on.
But I had to face the fact that I was not very good either, when I was
honest with myself. It is a fact that no person is as good as they think
they should be (if they are honest).

That God is holy. That He is the standard of what is truly right and wrong.
That no one, especially myself, could stand up to His standard. Whether you
believe in Him or not, if you would honestly set the standard set up in the
Bible against your own life, you would have to admit that you do not meet it
anymore than I do. This is an objective fact, that is that no one (not even
you or I) can meet the standard of good acting that the Bible sets forth.
Our wickedness is an objective fact that can be confirmed by reading a
newspaper, or just taking an honest look at ourselves.

We could argue all day about the evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus
Christ. If you are really interested (I don't think so) you could look up
many good books that deal with this subject. "Evidence that demands a
verdict" is excellent.

However, it is an objective fact that belief in the Resurrection of Jesus
has changed the course of history.

God raised Jesus from the dead to offer us newness of life. To offer us
reconciliation to Him, and a living relationship with Him. Now, you may not
believe this, but the objective fact is that untold millions have believed
this, that it has affected the course of history on this planet, and that
many millions have been persecuted, and died for holding to this belief.

Why were they willing to die for this belief? Because they found out that
this promise of a new, living, relationship was real and true. The
objective fact is that millions have believed this, and it affected their
lives so powerfully that they were willing to suffer for it, even die. And
this changed the course of history.

This is why I believe. Not because I saw the Resurrected Christ ( I did
not). Not because I checked out the many confirmations in history and
archeology about Biblical events (that came much later than my decision to
believe). Not because the Survival of the Jews, and all of the prophecies
that make that point, although this is very true. I asked Him to come into
my life, and He did indeed establish said relationship, just as He promised.
He would do the same for anyone who would ask.

God Bless
Carl
Bill
2005-06-06 16:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Because of your obvious ignorance of scientific and archaeological facts,
don't assume everyone else is equally ignorant.

Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit you have NO
OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that your God exists. Your beliefs are totally based on
folklore, legend and myth.

Bill
Post by Bill
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the
thousands
Post by Bill
of
Post by Bill
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence -
facts -
Post by Bill
not conjecture.
From reading your other posts, and the posts of many atheists on this ng, I
could not even meet your standard of evidence to prove that you exist.
You
Post by Bill
could be nothing more than random sun spot activity.
As a matter of fact, there is very little of anything that anyone knows
about anything that is based upon "objective evidence". 99.99% of what you
know and believe is not based upon actual experimentation, but on the
evidence of what someone told you about it. In some very small and
unimportant ways you may have experimented with what you have been told, and
you found it to be true, but most of what you think you know and believe is
based upon "Faith" in those who told you.
Now, the same thing applies to me. I did not come to believe in Jesus
Christ because I saw amazing things. I came to know Him because someone
shared their experience with me, and using a certain amount of trust in this
friend, I reached out, and found that what they had to say about Him was
true.
Basically what he shared with me is this;
That mankind, and myself were sinners.
This is quite obvious to me, since I have always been one to be picked on.
But I had to face the fact that I was not very good either, when I was
honest with myself. It is a fact that no person is as good as they think
they should be (if they are honest).
That God is holy. That He is the standard of what is truly right and wrong.
That no one, especially myself, could stand up to His standard. Whether you
believe in Him or not, if you would honestly set the standard set up in the
Bible against your own life, you would have to admit that you do not meet it
anymore than I do. This is an objective fact, that is that no one (not even
you or I) can meet the standard of good acting that the Bible sets forth.
Our wickedness is an objective fact that can be confirmed by reading a
newspaper, or just taking an honest look at ourselves.
We could argue all day about the evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus
Christ. If you are really interested (I don't think so) you could look up
many good books that deal with this subject. "Evidence that demands a
verdict" is excellent.
However, it is an objective fact that belief in the Resurrection of Jesus
has changed the course of history.
God raised Jesus from the dead to offer us newness of life. To offer us
reconciliation to Him, and a living relationship with Him. Now, you may not
believe this, but the objective fact is that untold millions have believed
this, that it has affected the course of history on this planet, and that
many millions have been persecuted, and died for holding to this belief.
Why were they willing to die for this belief? Because they found out that
this promise of a new, living, relationship was real and true. The
objective fact is that millions have believed this, and it affected their
lives so powerfully that they were willing to suffer for it, even die.
And
Post by Bill
this changed the course of history.
This is why I believe. Not because I saw the Resurrected Christ ( I did
not). Not because I checked out the many confirmations in history and
archeology about Biblical events (that came much later than my decision to
believe). Not because the Survival of the Jews, and all of the prophecies
that make that point, although this is very true. I asked Him to come into
my life, and He did indeed establish said relationship, just as He promised.
He would do the same for anyone who would ask.
God Bless
Carl
c***@yahoo.com
2005-06-06 21:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Because of your obvious ignorance of scientific and archaeological facts,
don't assume everyone else is equally ignorant.
Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit you have NO
OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that your God exists. Your beliefs are totally based on
folklore, legend and myth.
Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit that
your question was nothing but trolling, and that you had no desire
whatsoever to actually take any possible answer the least bit
seriously, but only wanted a platform to promote your religion, and
give yourself another opportunity to insult those who believe
differently?


Curtis
Bill
2005-06-06 23:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Post by Bill
Because of your obvious ignorance of scientific and archaeological facts,
don't assume everyone else is equally ignorant.
Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit you have NO
OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE that your God exists. Your beliefs are totally based on
folklore, legend and myth.
Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit that
your question was nothing but trolling, and that you had no desire
whatsoever to actually take any possible answer the least bit
seriously, but only wanted a platform to promote your religion, and
give yourself another opportunity to insult those who believe
differently?
Curtis
It's quite apparent you have no logical answer to the questions so you just
go into attack mode.

"but only wanted a platform to promote your religion,"

I have no religion and am not promoting anything. I'm just posing
challenging questions that you seem
afraid to attempt to answer.
c***@yahoo.com
2005-06-07 21:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit that
your question was nothing but trolling, and that you had no desire
whatsoever to actually take any possible answer the least bit
seriously, but only wanted a platform to promote your religion, and
give yourself another opportunity to insult those who believe
differently?
Curtis
It's quite apparent you have no logical answer to the questions so you just
go into attack mode.
Wrong.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.christian.religion/msg/4b196fd3d0c2984c?dmode=source&hl=en

Note the date/time stamp of the post: "Date: 6 Jun 2005 14:23:59"

Also note that I answered your question honestly and forthrightly.

Now, my "attack mode" post:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.christian.religion/msg/4ea76f04ba9d7b61?dmode=source&hl=en

Again, note the date/time stamp: "Date: 6 Jun 2005 14:35:42"

Obviously, I went into "attack mode" a full twelve minutes _after_ I
answered your question.
Post by Bill
"but only wanted a platform to promote your religion,"
I have no religion and am not promoting anything.
Sure you do, Modern Humanism, in one form or another.
Post by Bill
I'm just posing challenging questions that you seem
afraid to attempt to answer.
What seems to you is obviously in error, as I did answer your question.
OTOH, you seem afraid to admit that your question was nothing but
trolling, and that you had no desire whatsoever to actually take any
possible answer the least bit seriously, but only wanted a platform to
promote your religion, and give yourself another opportunity to insult
those who believe differently.


Curtis
Bill
2005-06-09 00:57:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Post by Bill
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Why don't you just be honest with others and yourself and admit that
your question was nothing but trolling, and that you had no desire
whatsoever to actually take any possible answer the least bit
seriously, but only wanted a platform to promote your religion, and
give yourself another opportunity to insult those who believe
differently?
Curtis
It's quite apparent you have no logical answer to the questions so you just
go into attack mode.
Wrong.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.christian.religion/msg/4b196fd3d0c2984c?dmode=source&hl=en
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Note the date/time stamp of the post: "Date: 6 Jun 2005 14:23:59"
Also note that I answered your question honestly and forthrightly.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.christian.religion/msg/4ea76f04ba9d7b61?dmode=source&hl=en
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Again, note the date/time stamp: "Date: 6 Jun 2005 14:35:42"
Obviously, I went into "attack mode" a full twelve minutes _after_ I
answered your question.
Post by Bill
"but only wanted a platform to promote your religion,"
I have no religion and am not promoting anything.
Sure you do, Modern Humanism, in one form or another.
Post by Bill
I'm just posing challenging questions that you seem
afraid to attempt to answer.
What seems to you is obviously in error, as I did answer your question.
OTOH, you seem afraid to admit that your question was nothing but
trolling, and that you had no desire whatsoever to actually take any
possible answer the least bit seriously, but only wanted a platform to
promote your religion, and give yourself another opportunity to insult
those who believe differently.
Curtis
Calm down. Unlike you I have NO religion to promote!
Bill
2005-06-06 23:19:40 UTC
Permalink
Dream on!
Post by Bill
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the
thousands
Post by Bill
of
Post by Bill
God beliefs that their God is a real God?
I'm not asking for "opinions", I'm asking for verifiable evidence -
facts -
Post by Bill
not conjecture.
From reading your other posts, and the posts of many atheists on this ng, I
could not even meet your standard of evidence to prove that you exist.
You
Post by Bill
could be nothing more than random sun spot activity.
As a matter of fact, there is very little of anything that anyone knows
about anything that is based upon "objective evidence". 99.99% of what you
know and believe is not based upon actual experimentation, but on the
evidence of what someone told you about it. In some very small and
unimportant ways you may have experimented with what you have been told, and
you found it to be true, but most of what you think you know and believe is
based upon "Faith" in those who told you.
Now, the same thing applies to me. I did not come to believe in Jesus
Christ because I saw amazing things. I came to know Him because someone
shared their experience with me, and using a certain amount of trust in this
friend, I reached out, and found that what they had to say about Him was
true.
Basically what he shared with me is this;
That mankind, and myself were sinners.
This is quite obvious to me, since I have always been one to be picked on.
But I had to face the fact that I was not very good either, when I was
honest with myself. It is a fact that no person is as good as they think
they should be (if they are honest).
That God is holy. That He is the standard of what is truly right and wrong.
That no one, especially myself, could stand up to His standard. Whether you
believe in Him or not, if you would honestly set the standard set up in the
Bible against your own life, you would have to admit that you do not meet it
anymore than I do. This is an objective fact, that is that no one (not even
you or I) can meet the standard of good acting that the Bible sets forth.
Our wickedness is an objective fact that can be confirmed by reading a
newspaper, or just taking an honest look at ourselves.
We could argue all day about the evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus
Christ. If you are really interested (I don't think so) you could look up
many good books that deal with this subject. "Evidence that demands a
verdict" is excellent.
However, it is an objective fact that belief in the Resurrection of Jesus
has changed the course of history.
God raised Jesus from the dead to offer us newness of life. To offer us
reconciliation to Him, and a living relationship with Him. Now, you may not
believe this, but the objective fact is that untold millions have believed
this, that it has affected the course of history on this planet, and that
many millions have been persecuted, and died for holding to this belief.
Why were they willing to die for this belief? Because they found out that
this promise of a new, living, relationship was real and true. The
objective fact is that millions have believed this, and it affected their
lives so powerfully that they were willing to suffer for it, even die.
And
Post by Bill
this changed the course of history.
This is why I believe. Not because I saw the Resurrected Christ ( I did
not). Not because I checked out the many confirmations in history and
archeology about Biblical events (that came much later than my decision to
believe). Not because the Survival of the Jews, and all of the prophecies
that make that point, although this is very true. I asked Him to come into
my life, and He did indeed establish said relationship, just as He promised.
He would do the same for anyone who would ask.
God Bless
Carl
c***@yahoo.com
2005-06-06 21:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Can anyone supply verifiable objective evidence that of all the
thousands of God beliefs that their God is a real God?
No.

Wasn't that easy?


Curtis
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